Alright B, lets talk coolers

sleepyalero · 01-11-2016, 07:21 PM

So from what i understand, the charger is basically at its limits at 10psi at 6000 rpm... Is this true? Also have heard it can be rough on it if using it alot.

You seem to know these charger more then anyone else. Give me some insight... Can you go higher then 10psi? Im looking to use a 2.2" pulley with the setup. Which i was told would be around 9.5 psi....

And also, custom aftercooler setup... Basically to prevent heat soak, and generating to much heat where i lose power instead of gain it. So what are my options? Ive seen you did a setup awhile back on your white car (found pictures on GAGT of it) curious if you have pictures of where the piping ran, where the cooler was sitting, etc. and if you can tell me all the parts used, and if its worth it.

AleroB888 · 01-14-2016, 09:04 AM

8-10 psi with a 2.2 pulley on an MP62 kit is about right for a stock engine. I have that on my '03 Alero, detailed here:

http://www.aleromod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36112 .

It is possible to get more boost with a 2.0 or even a 1.9 pulley. That may get you a better track time, but for most people not practical on a daily driver. There is more wear and tear and potential for slippage on the drive belt as well as the pulleys, which are only available in aluminum in smaller diameters. As far as wear on the 'charger for the street, the kit has held up for me with the small pulleys over the years. You will have to be sure of good pulley alignment, and probably replace the belt more often. And you would need alcohol injection or an intercooler to take full advantage of the extra boost at that point.

The MP62 kit is heat sensitive because of it's placement in the engine compartment. It will pick up exhaust manifold/crossover heat, and cooling system fan heat in warm weather. In the Winter, no problem -- the extra heat absorption is a benefit when the car needs to warm up quickly and help atomize fuel. It's a blast driving it in cold, dry weather.

On a hot Summer day, quite different. Your upper intake manifold temps can easily go up to 150 degrees after a hot soak -- even without a supercharger installed. I wouldn't recommend wrapping the headers, but you could design an effective heat shield for them. Redirecting the cooling system fan airflow is another idea, but difficult to pull off. Ironically, if you have the cooling fans come on at a lower temperature, it makes the upper intake manifold (and the supercharger) heat up even faster.
( to be continued

)

Papa Rad17 · 01-15-2016, 03:20 AM

I like what is happening here. mmmmm, pictures to top things off??

sleepyalero · 01-15-2016, 10:56 AM

My fans are tuned to be on all summer once at operating temp. You think fans would help keep it cooler?

I do agree with the extra heat because it sits right on top of the header basically.

The fans being on has helped keep the car cooler in hot weather. It stays right under half with the fans on. If they were off it would be slightly over.

AleroB888 · 01-17-2016, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyalero

My fans are tuned to be on all summer once at operating temp. You think fans would help keep it cooler?

I do agree with the extra heat because it sits right on top of the header basically.

The fans being on has helped keep the car cooler in hot weather. It stays right under half with the fans on. If they were off it would be slightly over.

The engine coolant temperature (ECT) will be lowered with the fans on, out of necessity to keep it from overheating and knock, but in the process the hot air is directed to the intake area, which raises the intake air temperature (IAT) and reduces power.

Once you start scanning for IAT at the upper intake manifold, you will see how this effect occurs. Also scan for "Delivered Trans Torque" to compare performance on hot and cold days.

sleepyalero · 01-17-2016, 10:37 PM

Yeah, ive messed with all that stuff. But i will be hoenst im not a very good tuner.

I had paul tune my car in the past, but i hate bothering him now because he seems like a busy dude and i love his help, and expertise. But it is hard to tune because i have to scan, send it via email, then he explains to me what to adjust, then i scan again and email him another for more adjustments until he sees its good.

That method can take weeks. If its raining or crappy weather, i cant get a scan. Then once i do have a scan, its when he has time to mess with it, then when i have time to get another scan for him, etc. its a long process. But hes a damn good dude, and knows his stuff. So paul if you are reading this i am forever greatful for your help.

Aside from that, ive been debating getting a dyno tune once the charger and bigger injectors is installed. Paul is willing to help adjust my injector tables so the car can drive efficient enough to get to a shop with a dyno.

Unless you want to tune my car, B? Haha you are closer to me then Paul is (canada)

AleroB888 · 01-17-2016, 11:03 PM

You should be able to use the tune from my 2003 Alero which has the same kit, except I have 28 lb injectors in it, and a different trans.

I think yours will be the only supercharged V6 kit with a manual trans.

sleepyalero · 01-18-2016, 12:19 AM

Does your 03 have the same bolt ons as i? And i will be using 42.5 injectors.

AleroB888 · 01-18-2016, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyalero

Does your 03 have the same bolt ons as i? And i will be using 42.5 injectors.

You can use the same tune you have now, except for a few tables that can be copied over to your file. That should be done by you as a starting point. Then road tests and scans will show what else needs to be done to improve it. I don't have the files on this computer, but I'll try to send one over later so you can look at it and compare the tune with what you have now. Then the only other thing is to change the injector flow rate (IFR) for the 42.5s.

sleepyalero · 01-18-2016, 07:19 PM

Yeah that could work. I already know ill have to make adjustments for the injectors.

But yeah, you can email it to me if you want. Just let me know. It will be a bit probably before i drive the car though.

3500Alero · 01-18-2016, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AleroB888

You should be able to use the tune from my 2003 Alero which has the same kit, except I have 28 lb injectors in it, and a different trans.

I think yours will be the only supercharged V6 kit with a manual trans.

Would I be able to take a look at it too? I am also a noob to boost tuning and am having trouble finding somewhere to start. If not I understand. I think that we may have to start a separate boost tuning thread!

Sorry for the high jack

When do the s/c's start making boost? I take it that they are fairly predictable?

sleepyalero · 01-18-2016, 09:50 PM

Superchargers are usually pretty instant compared to a turbo.

Dont worry about the thread jack, you are here to learn and get help and its kinda senseless to stary another topic if its already being discussed now here haha.

On a side note, should i run 28's or 36's for the setup with my current mods?

I just found out 99 (year of car im buying) has a different injector harness then 00+ models. The car has 42's on it now. But since the 42's are PNP with the 99 model, and not mine, if i were to swap injectors then i have to modify both harness's for the injector swap, and i dont feel like messing with that. I dont want to have the car forever. The quicker i can pull parts i want and get rid of it the better.

But im thinking it could be a bit much for what i have... Would 36 be most ideal? Or will 28's do fine?

AleroB888 · 01-18-2016, 09:54 PM

OK, I sent a file to the last email addy I had for you. Let me know if it gets there.

AleroB888 · 01-18-2016, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3500Alero

Would I be able to take a look at it too? I am also a noob to boost tuning and am having trouble finding somewhere to start. If not I understand. I think that we may have to start a separate boost tuning thread!

Sorry for the high jack

When do the s/c's start making boost? I take it that they are fairly predictable?

If you can read an HP Tuners file, yes. I can send one if you PM the address.

3500Alero · 01-18-2016, 10:02 PM

I think that 42's aren't really needed unless you are cammed or running more than 12psi. I have 36's waiting to go in my 3100 but I think that they may be a bit much while it is stock and under 10psi.

3500Alero · 01-18-2016, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AleroB888

If you can read an HP Tuners file, yes. I can send one if you PM the address.

PM sent!

AleroB888 · 01-18-2016, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyalero

Superchargers are usually pretty instant compared to a turbo.

Dont worry about the thread jack, you are here to learn and get help and its kinda senseless to stary another topic if its already being discussed now here haha.

On a side note, should i run 28's or 36's for the setup with my current mods?

I just found out 99 (year of car im buying) has a different injector harness then 00+ models. The car has 42's on it now. But since the 42's are PNP with the 99 model, and not mine, if i were to swap injectors then i have to modify both harness's for the injector swap, and i dont feel like messing with that. I dont want to have the car forever. The quicker i can pull parts i want and get rid of it the better.

But im thinking it could be a bit much for what i have... Would 36 be most ideal? Or will 28's do fine?

I'm not sure if I still have one, but if you can get an extra late model harness I believe you can cut off the main connector and splice the '99 harness into it. But to start the SC build, 28 lb. will work fine, with no drivability issues.

sleepyalero · 01-18-2016, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AleroB888

OK, I sent a file to the last email addy I had for you. Let me know if it gets there.

Awesome, i did get it! I will have to check that out once im closer to needing it. I get the car tomorrow then will work on everything else i need

Quote:

Originally Posted by AleroB888

I'm not sure if I still have one, but if you can get an extra late model harness I believe you can cut off the main connector and splice the '99 harness into it. But to start the SC build, 28 lb. will work fine, with no drivability issues.

So as of now my mods are: ported manifolds, MMS headers, no cat, 2.5inch exhaust, (SLP) supercharged (soon) and plan on running hopefully around 8-10psi. 6 speed trans. And thats really about it, 65mm TB and plenum spacers as well. So 28's should be no issue at all with everything you are thinking?

sleepyalero · 01-18-2016, 10:50 PM

Im getting mixed reviews. I asked someone this...

What was your duty cycle with the 36's on your setup?

His response:

Pretty close to maxed out, like 85-90%. There is no actual duty cycle reading when scanning, but you can scan the pulse width in milliseconds, and mine continued to increase up to the last 1000 rpm then went static and the AFR started leaning out, so I knew they were maxed out. The 36's are only good for about 260-280 hp. Need 42's above that.

AleroB888 · 01-19-2016, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepyalero

Im getting mixed reviews. I asked someone this...

What was your duty cycle with the 36's on your setup?

His response:

Pretty close to maxed out, like 85-90%. There is no actual duty cycle reading when scanning, but you can scan the pulse width in milliseconds, and mine continued to increase up to the last 1000 rpm then went static and the AFR started leaning out, so I knew they were maxed out. The 36's are only good for about 260-280 hp. Need 42's above that.

You will get different interpretations of the scan data from people, the builds (and the PCM tuning in them) differ widely as well. In my case, I've used stock engines with no porting in the past. The duty cycles (IDC) are able to be scanned with HP Tuners. True, there is a range in which the injectors can possibly go static, and that is a danger for sure. But with the 36's on my stock engine, they only got close to that range for 1-2 seconds, just before shifting to the next gear at WOT. And that was with the MP90 at 10-14 psi. The only time I had mine go lean was because not keeping the gas tank full enough on 1/4-mile runs. The colder the weather is, the more danger of running lean at WOT, if you're already close to max on the injectors.