Story time - Matt's latest (last?) Alero build

homegrown · 03-09-2021, 02:39 PM

Everyone:
I'm not sure that anyone even reads this stuff (or cares) anymore, but sometimes I find it therapeutic (if mildly depressing) to document the work I've put into keeping my Alero. I don't know why, but I think I had gotten to a certain point 4 years ago that I've put so much into it at this point, what's another 10 grand?

So, I figured I'd document my latest brain aneurism for you all to poke fun at. But we need to know where we've been to get a sense of my monumental stupidity.
This is (I think?) the 4th motor build I've done on this car.
A bit of history -

Some years ago, when I was young and dumb, I bought one of the used Magnuson supercharger kits, and bolted it on. This was before there were any tuning solutions available (so it was probably 2003 or 2004). Anyway, the car didn't run right, so I cut my losses after a week with boost. That should have been the first warning.

Then, I figured it's safer to just stay naturally-aspirated. So I installed a set of ported heads, along with ported intake manifolds (it was really early on). There were no cams out yet, and the car was still an automatic, but I had a set of TOG headers. Life was good; I should have stopped there. We'll call this build #1.

Fast forward maybe 2 years or so, and Ben (of WOT-Tech fame) starts selling cams. Now I'm salivating. But by that point I had 100K miles on the motor, and I figured since I'll be in that deep, I should just build a new motor. So I worked with a local-ish guy to build a new 3400 with 1mm oversize pistons (but still the stock compression ratio), Ben's "1280" cam grind (it seemed like a good middle-of-the-road compromise), a set of coated S&S headers, and all the supporting do-dads. After some tinkering with pushrod lengths and tuning (with DHP, I think), all was good. The car was still automatic at this point. We'll call this build #2.

Maybe a year or so later, people started looking at the F40 six-speed from the G6 and realizing it wasn't too awful to swap in. I love manuals, so I found that Milzy Motorsports could do the swap, and do all the tuning (now supported by HPTuners!) to make the car happy. Cool! But of course, Mike couldn't guarantee that my S&S headers would clear the shift linkage on the F40, so I should get a set of his new headers. Why not? So I put in my order with Mike - I think literally minutes before Nathan ordered his F40 swap. Of course, the MMS headers went to Swaintech first to get their White Lightning header coating. Anyway, that took some time to get done (maybe 6 months?) and again, there were some teething problems, but I was happy.

Now, it's time to dive head-first down the rabbit hole. I decided the car wasn't fast enough for me. So, Ben had recently come out with his newer cam grinds, and I was all hot-to-trot for his "Race" cam. The specs didn't seem too radical, but he advertised it as wanting 10.5:1 compression or higher. So, I went nuts and using my original block, I ordered 11:1 Diamond Racing forged pistons, forged Scat rods, ported 3500 heads, that sexy Race cam, etc. I threw in a Quaife limited-slip diff at the same time, since I'd be making so much power (or so I dreamt). We'll call this build #3.

The shop in Elk Grove Village that I commissioned to build the new motor, install it and tune it (along with installing the Quaife) took their sweet old time getting the job done - probably 8 months. The car ran, but died on me several times on both the test drive, and the drive home. They never secured the friggin' battery, so it was shorting out the electronics, causing the car to die on the highway (during Chicago rush hour). I wanted someone to crash into me and put me out of my misery at this point.

So, if anyone has read my post from August 2017, I had kinda reached the end of my rope. Somehow, I let myself be convinced to not throw in the towel. So, this time, I was going to have 100% of the work done by someone who has been working on these cars for years, so I called up MMS again. I had him put together a package with a low-mile 3500 LX9 motor, and then throw the complete MMS "Stage 2" package at it. I'm not going to get into the length of time that it took or any of the other baloney, but this is now build #4, and I just got the car back in my garage a bit over 2 weeks ago.

I really haven't driven the car that much yet (I went for a test drive in early February while the car was still at Mike's), but with the cold weather and sketchy road surfaces, I couldn't get a great feel for the new setup. I will say that it doesn't like the cold weather, and doesn't like to idle lower than 1000rpm. If you place any stock in dyno numbers, it made 244.6WHP at 6500rpm, and I'm guessing about 234ft-lbs at the wheels at 4600-ish rpm. So, yeah, I'll have to rev the piss out of this pushrod V6. I've attached the dyno chart for you all to laugh at.

Here's to many happy (and God-willing, trouble-free) miles. But please, for the love of God, don't ever think that this was a good idea.

[ion] C2 · 03-09-2021, 07:41 PM

What a story.

Looks like no need to rev past 6500 based on the graph.

Young Gun · 03-11-2021, 10:33 PM

I lost it at hot-to-trot. Hopefully #4 treats you well and gives you miles of joy.

dbral · 03-13-2021, 06:41 AM

Wishing you the best of luck and many years of enjoyment with your new build.

You mention a 1000 rpm minimum idle speed. Do you think your new engine would stall / have drivability issues at low vehicle speeds or when coming to a stop if you still had your automatic trans? Do you still have good brake assist?

1970cs · 03-13-2021, 05:24 PM

Well they say" persistency, pays off" I wish this works out for you!

Pat

homegrown · 03-14-2021, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbral

You mention a 1000 rpm minimum idle speed. Do you think your new engine would stall / have drivability issues at low vehicle speeds or when coming to a stop if you still had your automatic trans? Do you still have good brake assist?

It's really hard to say. This combination has been run by other people that still have an automatic transmission, but I'm not privy to what they've done to make drivability acceptable.
I will say that part of the challenge is tuning limitations when sticking with the factory PCM and the limited tuning options that come with it. Let's face it - support for this platform from HPTuners is basically the bare minimum. I could probably make it much friendlier by switching to a stand-alone, but I can't fathom making that kind of investment.

dbral · 03-15-2021, 08:27 AM

Quote:

It's really hard to say. This combination has been run by other people that still have an automatic transmission, but I'm not privy to what they've done to make drivability acceptable.
I will say that part of the challenge is tuning limitations when sticking with the factory PCM and the limited tuning options that come with it. Let's face it - support for this platform from HPTuners is basically the bare minimum. I could probably make it much friendlier by switching to a stand-alone, but I can't fathom making that kind of investment.

I was led to believe that the Stage 2 package was plug and play. What programming changes need to be made to help with your drivability issues that would require a stand-alone?

[ion] C2 · 03-15-2021, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbral

I was led to believe that the Stage 2 package was plug and play. What programming changes need to be made to help with your drivability issues that would require a stand-alone?

HPTuners doesn't let you see or adjust all of the settings of the stock computer. There are many tables and controls that are unknown to the user.

For example, on my 2.4L ECU, there's something that dictates the idle engine speed should be high during coastdown, but I can't see it. The moment the vehicle speed hits 0, the idle immediately drops to normal (1,000). Until then, it can sometimes be quite high (2,000-2,500 RPM).

Or, when the A/C is turned on, idle is adjusted. The controls dealing with that are also hidden (at least on the 2.4L).

I'm sure the 3400 has similar missing tables.

dbral · 03-18-2021, 08:53 AM

Based on what you have put into your Alero over the last couple of decades, going the extra mile in order to get the new engine to run properly would certainly be justified. If you are positive that the programming/tune is the root cause of your issues what's wrong with spending another 2k at this point? lol. Either way, I hope that you enjoy build #4 after the years of waiting . Looks like it runs pretty good at WOT

dbral · 03-20-2021, 08:38 AM

Shawn's LTZ held the record for the Highest HP N/A 3800 in North America, and possibly the World, until Intense's sponsored stage 3 L36 reclaimed the title. He currently has the highest dyno numbers for a non-sponsored NA L36. Shawn's LTZ puts down 233.9HP & 251.7TQ at The Wheels. See his Dyno Sheet

You now have more WHP than a highly modified 3800. Congrats. Thought you might find that interesting

homegrown · 03-24-2021, 04:00 PM

I'll just leave this here -

[ion] C2 · 03-24-2021, 10:49 PM

sounds beastly

dbral · 03-25-2021, 09:21 AM

Good deal. What did you find that was causing the idle complaint? Were you able to address the cold weather driveability also?

homegrown · 03-25-2021, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbral

Good deal. What did you find that was causing the idle complaint? Were you able to address the cold weather driveability also?

I have not driven it at all since I got it back a month ago. It was below freezing (and snowing!) the evening it was delivered, so I just don't think it likes the cold (it's about 55 degrees in my garage, so a bit warmer ambient air helps).

Young Gun · 03-25-2021, 06:22 PM

Nice! What exhaust you running these days?

homegrown · 03-26-2021, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young Gun

Nice! What exhaust you running these days?

It's pretty basic - I've had it for probably 4 years now.
MMS headers (coated with White Lightning by Swaintech)
From the downpipe, I use 2.5" stainless pipe all the way back to the muffler.
In between, there's a Magnaflow 2.5" ID catalytic converter and a 14" long 2.5" ID Magnaflow resonator.
Muffler is a Magnaflow transverse unit for a Camaro; 2.5" in and dual 2.25" out. Tips are from Magnaflow as well. The entire header-back exhaust was fabricated on-site at MMS, so the fitment is perfect.

dbral · 03-26-2021, 08:40 AM

Quote:

I have not driven it at all since I got it back a month ago. It was below freezing (and snowing!) the evening it was delivered, so I just don't think it likes the cold (it's about 55 degrees in my garage, so a bit warmer ambient air helps).
__________________

Snow?!?....Dang, hope the weather up there improves soon so you get a chance to have some fun with it. Yeah, it starts up as soon as you turn the key, sounds great, and doesn't seem to miss a beat. Based on your first post, I expected something awful and terrible. Would love to see a video of your car ripping through a few gears. Judging by the dyno numbers it should haul the mail. Looks like you have more than 40whp over a 3400 Stage 2. Are you running a stock bottom end?

homegrown · 03-26-2021, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbral

Snow?!?....Dang, hope the weather up there improves soon so you get a chance to have some fun with it. ......Are you running a stock bottom end?

Yeah; the weather in Northern IL can be like that. I'm hoping that temperatures moderate a bit in the next few weeks - this morning it was only 33 degrees (Fahrenheit) when I left for work.
Stock 3500 bottom-end.

dbral · 03-27-2021, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Yeah; the weather in Northern IL can be like that. I'm hoping that temperatures moderate a bit in the next few weeks - this morning it was only 33 degrees (Fahrenheit) when I left for work.
Stock 3500 bottom-end.

Post some driving impressions if you can when the weather finally warms up for you guys. Hopefully all is good. What timing chain are you running and did you choose to upgrade the rocker arms and/or time-sert the rocker bolt holes?

homegrown · 03-28-2021, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbral

Post some driving impressions if you can when the weather finally warms up for you guys. Hopefully all is good. What timing chain are you running and did you choose to upgrade the rocker arms and/or time-sert the rocker bolt holes?

I drove it a few miles yesterday and initial impressions are that I need to re-calibrate my right foot. My wife looked at our vehicle insurance app and I was flagged for heavy acceleration several times, so I got throttled for that (he he he....get it?).
Anyway, this thing rips pretty good. Especially once the tach needle swings past 4000rpm; seems like you're at redline in the blink of an eye. I can't even fathom how insane Chris's car is with 600+ HP.
Problems? Sure. The transmission is very clunky at low speeds (like when you're crawling around a parking lot). It's compounded my the fact that the engine doesn't like puttering around. And if you're at low-ish speeds and making a turn and push in the clutch (like turning into a parking spot or my subdivision), the engine dies. But that's related to the computer calibration in that we don't have a bunch of tables to fine tune it. I do not have the stomach to change to a stand-alone EMS - I'm in way too deep as it is.
But such is life. I'll try to have fun with it and stay out of jail.
Oh, and I'm on a stock timing set and rocker arms. I do not believe that time-serts were used in the heads.