3500 LX9 build with Milzy Motorsports parts

[dbral]

The Wottech PCM arrived today!! Ordered 3/4/2022 arrived 3/18/2022 and would have arrived sooner but I made a mistake and forgot to enter the correct injector info so they rewrote the tune for me, no charge/no complaints. This tune is a guess on my part. Hopefully it is close enough to get it up and running and do some mild break-in before the dyno.....if not I have AAA on it. Maybe they will tow it there for me lol.

Here is a comparison with MMS;

Milzy Stage 2 computer $199
ordered 02/28/2018.....have been asking MMS to kindly send it since 01/08/2022 with no replies or updates on the PCM...still has not arrived

Wottech performance computer $199
ordered 03/04/2022 arrived 03/18/2022 with excellent communications and helpful service to correct a mistake I made when ordering the computer

This project is starting to come together now!!! Thanks Wottech

[3500Alero]

Good to hear that you are getting some performance parts!

Just read the link you posted why is he even offering items for sale if he doesn't have them? Any large builds I could see a small percentage down up front but not the full amount. I understand he has to buy the stuff too but he should have a budget for this type of stuff.

Any way, just get out to the track with your new parts and have fun, then improve it from there! If you have access to a welder you could build your own set of headers for fairly low cost using a cheap/used set of v8 headers for the bends, a pair of 3400 flanges and some 3 to 1 collectors. I did this myself for my 3100 cavalier years ago!

Also if there is any parts your looking for let me know and I will see what I have or I can find!

[dbral]

Good to hear that you are getting some performance parts!

Thank you!

Just read the link you posted why is he even offering items for sale if he doesn't have them? Any large builds I could see a small percentage down up front but not the full amount. I understand he has to buy the stuff too but he should have a budget for this type of stuff.

Good question and excellent points....

Any way, just get out to the track with your new parts and have fun, then improve it from there! If you have access to a welder you could build your own set of headers for fairly low cost using a cheap/used set of v8 headers for the bends, a pair of 3400 flanges and some 3 to 1 collectors. I did this myself for my 3100 cavalier years ago!

Great idea with the headers right there and hopefully it gets up and goes well enough to have some fun with it at the track! Looking forward to it for sure!!

Also if there is any parts your looking for let me know and I will see what I have or I can find!

Thanks for the kind offer!!! I think there is enough parts collected now to get it going...it is just now mostly a matter of me getting some extra time to work on it lol!

[dbral]

Not much progress with the remaining MMS parts. Spotty communications (at best) that indicate they have an old/new/imaginary set of headers that they are coating for me along with "some" (not all lol) of the other parts ordered way back when. The company is unwilling to verify fitment of headers (Like they said they would when ordered.) or has yet to send pics of said parts so who knows. Was going to drive up there with the hopes of installing the parts on site..... MMS claims to have a cut-away N body to verify fitment......AND the Air Force Museum is located in Dayton so no matter what the trip would not be a total loss but no pics or proof of parts as of yet so i am having second thoughts.

Hoping to see the parts by the end of the month.

Oh, they are also unwilling to repair/refinish/refund or otherwise make at least somewhat okay their terrible powdercoating.

Sorry about the multi-year rant. Hopefully the next post concerning MMS parts will be of progress.

[dbral]

Meh, could always have a make milzy motorsports great again n-body meet/cruise-in lol. Hope it works out for all of us somehow.

[sleepyalero]

Milzy does have a mock up motor/front end, i have been in his shop a few times.

[dbral]

Milzy does have a mock up motor/front end, i have been in his shop a few times.

Good to hear. Hopefully it gets put to good use for all of the customers still waiting for headers / parts.

In my case, unlike what was promised at time of purchase, MMS requests that i now sign a waiver so that MMS would not be held liable for any damages incurring from a fitment check of the headers as they were "sent to the coaters" before a fitment check was performed. The headers still have not arrived. Ordered Jan. 2018

Still no updates or pics from MMS of the TCE 68mm throttle body i ordered in Dec. 2017. The information that i get from TCE is that they no longer produce these due to lack of interest. Hopefully just miscommunication......

Well, (And this is the main reason for this thread.) please take a lesson from my stupidity and protect your money. I know that it is hard not to pull the trigger and buy things for an awesome hobby (esp. if your kid is interested too) but one way i could have prevented this situation is to have taken a breath, thought about it for a minute, and had a contract drawn up to keep the ball in my court. The terms could always be redrawn if problems should arise. (Wottech, btw is completely fine with this arrangement.) Custom parts take time and problems are expected...but 5 years of waiting? (And i hope that there are not any more "MMS satisfied customers" waiting longer than this, however i did notice a recent MMS BBB complaint from yet another "MMS Satisfied Customer" from my home state of South Carolina so maybe?) Actually, the best solution might be to build the parts yourself if you have the time and space....and tools. Could buy one heck of a TIG welder for what money i am still owed from MMS.

Hope it works out for all of us somehow

[sleepyalero]

Originally Posted by dbral

Good to hear. Hopefully it gets put to good use for all of the customers still waiting for headers / parts.

In my case, unlike what was promised at time of purchase, MMS requests that i now sign a waiver so that MMS would not be held liable for any damages incurring from a fitment check of the headers as they were "sent to the coaters" before a fitment check was performed. The headers still have not arrived. Ordered Jan. 2018

Still no updates or pics from MMS of the TCE 68mm throttle body i ordered in Dec. 2017. The information that i get from TCE is that they no longer produce these due to lack of interest. Hopefully just miscommunication......

Well, (And this is the main reason for this thread.) please take a lesson from my stupidity and protect your money. I know that it is hard not to pull the trigger and buy things for an awesome hobby (esp. if your kid is interested too) but one way i could have prevented this situation is to have taken a breath, thought about it for a minute, and had a contract drawn up to keep the ball in my court. The terms could always be redrawn if problems should arise. (Wottech, btw is completely fine with this arrangement.) Custom parts take time and problems are expected...but 5 years of waiting? (And i hope that there are not any more "MMS satisfied customers" waiting longer than this, however i did notice a recent MMS BBB complaint from yet another "MMS Satisfied Customer" from my home state of South Carolina so maybe?) Actually, the best solution might be to build the parts yourself if you have the time and space....and tools. Could buy one heck of a TIG welder for what money i am still owed from MMS.

Hope it works out for all of us somehow

You are very patient. Thats some crazy wait times. The TCE are not easy to obtain. usually made in small batches at a time. I had one myself on my 3400. It took awhile to get as it wasnt readily available.

I am well out of the Alero scene, as I sold mine years ago, but when i did have it. I was in touch quite often with Milzy, at the time. He was a great guy, a little slow and not very well at keeping customers up to date/communicating. But on the days i would be impatient i would give him no choice and just show up to the shop. In most cases he was very helpful with me, and ?had my back? even spoke about sponsors at one point and trying prototype parts. But after awhile it just seemed he took on way more then he could chew, couldnt keep employees in the shop to help him etc which created the down fall of MMS. Its very sad because he had the right mind set. Built crazy 3100/3400/3500/3800 cars (his monte 3800 turbo is sick) but he had the right idea. Unfortunately this market is a dying breed, and only a few OG?s care to dump big money into these cars. And thats hard to run a business off of.

But i wish you the best of luck, but it seems like your parts may never come about. (praying thats not your case)

[dbral]

You are very patient. Thats some crazy wait times. The TCE are not easy to obtain. usually made in small batches at a time. I had one myself on my 3400. It took awhile to get as it wasnt readily available.

I am well out of the Alero scene, as I sold mine years ago, but when i did have it. I was in touch quite often with Milzy, at the time. He was a great guy, a little slow and not very well at keeping customers up to date/communicating. But on the days i would be impatient i would give him no choice and just show up to the shop. In most cases he was very helpful with me, and ?had my back? even spoke about sponsors at one point and trying prototype parts. But after awhile it just seemed he took on way more then he could chew, couldnt keep employees in the shop to help him etc which created the down fall of MMS. Its very sad because he had the right mind set. Built crazy 3100/3400/3500/3800 cars (his monte 3800 turbo is sick) but he had the right idea. Unfortunately this market is a dying breed, and only a few OG?s care to dump big money into these cars. And thats hard to run a business off of.

But i wish you the best of luck, but it seems like your parts may never come about. (praying thats not your case)

Thanks for the support and my initial dealings with MMS were great also. Very much enjoyed talking with the owner but it got frustrating hearing "Yeah, your parts will be ready "next spring" or "next fall" or "next summer" etc... Anyway, you may be right. Maybe no one will receive their parts (or sub-par parts) as the original fabricator (Forcefab?) is gone. That was the real talent behind MMSs previously good reputation IMHO.

Sucks to hear about the TCE production picture. If they have not made a run in 5 years then they may be over and out.....but it does beg the question of why they are still listed for sale on the MMS website.

LOL, i'm not so much patient, mostly foolish, however it's not been a total loss waiting around. My kid and i did have a lot of fun with that old GA a few years back and we bought another car (with readily available parts lol) to goof around with so no regrets there. Also, it was awesome to find out that other people share the love for these old GM FWD cars too. I enjoyed reading about your car's evolution and the many others on here as well. Will always have a soft spot for these vehicles lol.

[dbral]

In the interest of trying to keep the issues between just MMS and the people that are still involved with the GM FWD scene, i think that sharing this email would be in everyones best interest. If i am wrong, please delete this or maybe instead, someone can kindly tell me and the rest of the current MMS customers what we should be doing differently. Also, it would be nice to get a response from the business in question as i see that they are a part of this forum.

To MMS,

Still no response, however that does not surprise me as this is not unusual. Send pictures of the parts from the list of parts that MMS claims to have ready please so this "transaction" can hopefully begin to be finalized. Did I not pay in full? Did I not go to bat for MMS with paypal? Did I not have to buy duplicate parts from your competitor because MMS still has not fulfilled their end of the bargain? Have I not been waiting 5 years? What did I fail to do on my end? Why does MMS still not send the parts? I know one thing that I did wrong, and that was trust what the owner of MMS told me when I ordered those parts. That is what MMS banks on, I believe, to take advantage of "interested and trusting customers".. My initial impression of MMS was that they shared the same passion for turning these old FWD cars into cool sleepers, but come to realize that MMS instead may only be passionate about taking advantage of the trusting people that actually still care about these vehicles. If you are going to respond back with the normal MMS 5 year old rhetoric of "its the holidays, and we are so busy shipping parts" or " too busy answering emails to get anything done" then I will save you the time and kindly ask that you do like the rest of us are forced to do this Christmas, and spend a few days with your family and then get back to work and get us our parts. Work some weekends too. The rest of us do. I remember your "Schedule Page" No weekend work for MMS. If MMS actually cared (and this was not a scam), then MMS would not stop until all was made right. Personally, I believe now that there is a good chance that MMS is not talented enough to come through anyway regardless of how much time is spent so maybe it does not matter. If this is the case, then do the right thing and refund me and the other customers as well. Pull the plug if you and your employees now lack the talent and brains to perform this kind of service. No shame in being honest. What has been going on for years at MMS appears to be a some type of scam..... But hopefully this is not the case. I read the Muransky vs. Miller case. Really MMS? That was shameful..But seen the pics of that build and noticed that the fab work was top notch. I wish that I could have the kind of talent the original MMS fabricator has and I bet you wish you could have that kind of talent as well. Good luck

Edit: In the interest of possibly helping MMS out with their "backlog" and so customers that have been waiting for years have an idea of what is going on, maybe MMS can share the contact information of their coaters, fabricators, and parts suppliers. A lot of what i am waiting for is most likely not produced in house so maybe others are in the same boat? Would be nice to know what our money is being spent on and it would give MMS a "break" from update reports.

Hopefully MMS comes thru for everyone involved

[dbral]

Update: MMS did recently respond and they finally did offer to repair their powder coating mistakes. A few years back, i offered MMS the option of no powdercoat and that they can keep the funds too....Just send my cores back ASAP. Wish they would have taken me up on that, but it was nice to hear that MMS admitted fault and they were willing to do good by their customer. So, thanks MMS, but i will fix them instead. Personally, i don't care what the part looks like, i just don't want paint inside my engine. There was no reason whatsoever to paint the underside of that lower intake.

It was nice to hear that MMS addressed the one minor concern that i have, however the major concern of still no parts after 5 years of waiting has not been addressed at all. Still no updates or pics. It looks a little more hopeful now, but we shall see....Maybe a late Christmas gift will come for all of us that have been waiting from MMS? Hoping for the best

[leroBob]

Well hopefully you get these parts back before this page shuts down lol.

[dbral]

Well hopefully you get these parts back before this page shuts down lol.

lol i hope this site does not ever shut down. As for the parts, well that may never happen....

[dbral]

Well, for what it's worth, here is the current situation. After waiting over 5 years for the parts, MMS now wants to "refund" me for the headers and will "send" the rest of the parts owed. Of course it is a totally open-ended offer from MMS where they are refusing to give dates/amounts/method of fund transfer etc...No surprises there. What is odd though is that they recently claimed that the headers were ready to ship and that my order status also shows "ready to ship" Even more odd is that they are offering a "refund" on a non-refundable part but refusing to refund me on refundable parts. Not sure what to make of all of that. The company is also refusing to state their reasoning behind why they broke our agreement terms or the whereabouts of the headers either so who knows.

Anyway, being that MMS has now defaulted on the terms of our 5+ year agreement, i said no to that "offer" and instead gave them 2 options. Refund in full on the remaining parts OR send me the rest of the parts so that i can do a dyno comparison. Would love to see if a cheepo budget build would outperform the MMS Stage2. The window of opportunity has passed for the father/daughter project so maybe the dyno idea would be a fun substitute?

Quite disappointed that MMS dropped the ball after 5+ years but we shall see...
Hopefully i am not being too unreasonable....

[tw0123]

You are not being unreasonable at all. I wouldn't settle for less than a full refund plus interest.

[dbral]

You are not being unreasonable at all. I wouldn't settle for less than a full refund plus interest.

i am hoping that is the case and the "plus interest" is a nice touch too.

Hoping this works out for me and others caught up in it too.

[dbral]

Maybe MMS will respond to this message as they are part of this forum or maybe this conversation will help others to make an informed decision before paying up front and ordering online as well. Protect your project and your money or this could be you.....

to Mike
Edit #7 of the same email of 2/13/2022. Your delayed responses allow me time to keep adding to the original text when something else comes to mind.

You are running out of time. You have not given any reason as to why you broke our agreement terms nor do you offer any acceptable compensation for failing to fulfill your terms. If you do not respond by the date that I gave then I have to assume that you and your company have, by default, negative intentions and will move forward with that in mind. This was supposed to be a fun build that my daughter and I could enjoy together but instead we have "this". Times up. I technically could argue quite successfully that I no longer need any of those parts, including the ones that have been sent. You have my current terms but those could change at any time.

MMS--My business is ran on my terms, not yours. We'll be doing the refund my way or not at all. I'm trying to refund you for the headers order now. If that's not good enough, then I guess we don't have to do a refund if that's how you want it. Take it or leave it."
---Well, that is not how I read your "refund offer" This is what you are actually trying to get by with and I quote...

MMS-"I will be mailing you a check as a refund for the order of the N-body headers and the associated parts on that order. I will not be charging you any restocking fee on this refund.

We will send you the remaining parts like the throttle body, pcm, etc"

--- That is not going to work. It is not fair to me because it is open ended, does not include dates or amounts, does not protect me from receiving a bad "check" and based on my 5 years of experience of dealing with MMS after paying 7600 upfront and still being owed thousands of dollars of goods and services, I would be foolish to accept that. My more than fair terms are stated in my last email. Take it or take it. You are the one who admitted that you could not come through and broke our agreement, not me. You have refused all of my more than fair past offers and ideas to help you fulfill your end of agreement YEARS ago, including a refund. I more than did my part and have waited 4 and a half years over promise time as well. Your turn. You are not the victim here. What would you do if the tables were turned and I was the cause of ruining your father/son project and I was treating you the way you are treating me? Either refund me per my terms, or send me the parts per my terms and ironically those are the same terms that we agreed upon over 5 years ago and the same agreement terms that you recently broke. Only difference is that I now added a completion date and a recourse for me if you fail to meet the date. You are getting a second chance to do the right thing and fulfill your obligation as per our agreement of over 5 years ago or you can refund me for what you still owe me. Take it or take it.

MMS---"it was a direct result of the customer trying to man-handle what is usually my job of picking out the correct parts, and because this was part of a lawsuit at the time....."
---Well, that right there tells me all I need to know. "Because it was part of a lawsuit at the time." How you managed to lose the trust of someone clearly willing to spend Mega Bucks on that build is something that I unfortunately understand all too well after dealing with you after 5 years myself. This is supposed to be a fun and enjoyable hobby, not some years long/say one thing do another/ frustrating/wish I never made the decision to deal with you mess that always seems to be the case when dealing with MMS for almost everyone. I really feel bad for that customer and others like him. Take a lesson from Wottech. I and many others love dealing with them. I look forward to dealing with Wottech and have fun doing so and I have always received my parts and received them quickly. Ironically, Wottech sent me, in a matter of days, the same parts that I have been waiting over 5 years for MMS to send. Possibly emulate their business model and maybe you can start to make a positive difference in MMS, your customers, and the N-body hobby as well. Just a suggestion.


Would love a chance to do the dyno comparison idea that I previously mentioned, but based on feedback from another stage 2 customer that you personally tuned, it would probably just keep stalling.... much like MMS. Oh, and It took that customer years to get their car back too. You are very inept at what you do. Just like me when I foolishly trusted what you said over 5 years ago. I am inept at not protecting myself from scams. It sucks to be inept. I can empathize with you on that.

MMS-"I mean I don't care really if you don't answer it for another year, I just find it kind of ironic."
-----I find it ironic that MMS is offering a refund on a non-refundable part and refusing to refund me on a refundable part.

Your competitor was able to provide me with some of the needed parts in days, the same parts that I have been waiting over 5 years for MMS to send. To be clear, I am not asking for a complete refund of 7600, just what MMS still owes me in parts. More than fair, especially considering the years of waiting, having to buy duplicate parts from your competitor, MMS ignoring the multiple, more than fair previous offers and opportunities to finish this build (and refund me as well btw), and obviously the main reason that this build was started in the first place. The "main reason" is well documented and public in case you forgot. I probably should be asking for a complete refund, but like I said before, I foolishly trusted what you told me over 5 years ago and did not protect myself. My 2 terms are clearly stated in my last email. Pick one please.

MMS- "There are so many things wrong with the things you say I don't know where to start. The only thing that cost more than $50k were the lawyers. His bill was $35k which never even was paid off. $5k was spent on a billet crankshaft we didn't need and I recommended against."
---- Post from MMS on 11/08/2017 "Anyways the total for all the parts and labor that we did is about $48,000." That is a quote from MMS directly. "About $48,000" is what MMS posted. That sounds like an estimation to me. So, between $46k and $51k maybe? As far as the time frame is concerned, according to the public record, MMS had the vehicle for 7 years. So after $50k, 7 years of waiting, AND a lawsuit, the customer got 370 unreliable whp from MMS. Pathetic. In my case it is over 5 years and $7600 for 0 whp. Pathetic again. There are so many things wrong with what you do (and say), I don't know where to start.

Come to think of it, this $50k build/lawsuit thing was going on during the time that I was ordering almost 8k of parts from you. The same parts that you now admit, after 5 years, that you either do not have or refuse to refund in full. The MMS lawsuit should have been disclosed to me at the time of purchase as well, especially since you admitted the profound effect that it had on your business as far as not fulfilling orders just like mine and others as well. MMS posts on 1/16/2020 "Why was MMS slow at developing parts and finishing projects" and gives the 50k build/lawsuit as the ONLY excuse.

MMS-This address I've been asking for, you sit here bitching about time over and over, but you realize I've been asking for the address for the better part of a year right? I mean I don't care really if you don't answer it for another year, I just find it kind of ironic.
---- Like your communications guidelines suggest, " please refrain from swearing." The information requested was sent 6 months ago to MMS btw.

You can refund me for the rest of the parts or you can send me the rest of the parts. The terms are in my last email. Carefully read and comply with those terms. Very simply stated and fair with more fairness shown towards the business than towards the customer in my opinion, especially considering the circumstances involved. If you disagree, kindly explain in detail.

Again, I am very disappointed that you dropped the ball after over 5 years of waiting. My headers were ready to ship by your own admission. My header order status shows awaiting shipment too.
On the bright side, your response times are improving. Not even close to on par with your competitor but an improvement nonetheless. Customers like me that have been waiting 5+ years for goods and services that were supposed to take "6 months" to complete do appreciate being considered somewhat of a priority, that is unless there are MMS customers waiting even longer than that. Hopefully you have a plan in place to turn your business around too. Would be a shame to have even less options for the n-body hobbyist, but since it appears that MMS is not capable of fulfilling paid-up-front orders over 5 years old, or even offering a simple refund on all of those parts either, then the n-body crowd would be better off without you now. MMS had a good reputation years ago. I believe now that MMS is a scam. You are not doing a very good job of proving me wrong so far...

[tw0123]

You are being far too kind towards him... I'd be demanding the full 7600 refund. You've waited 5+ years; the time has p passed for the dad/ daughter build as she has moved on... I've realized the timeline with kids is short enough... to be waiting on a joke like milzy is a shame... I'd be going for a full refund, no exceptions. Continue dealing with Ben at Wot-tech and finish the build that way.

[dbral]

All things considered, i am partly to blame here for ignoring good advice from you all and trusting in what was promised by the business. Hard to ask for a full refund at this point under those terms. Gonna see if they do right by me and others as well. The window of magic with your kids is way too short for sure but i think that we made the best of it though. Thanks for the support.

Yes, can personally verify that Wottech is the real deal and will be doing more business with them in the future as well.

[dbral]

Well, the BBB was kind enough to take on this case and at least make it public. Unfortunately, just tried to send my response to the business and it sent a blank page instead. No do-overs either. I emailed the BBB and let them know. Hopefully they will fix that. Fingers crossed, just can't seem to catch a break lol. Hope it works out ok for all of us "customers" somehow.