Smart Way To Make Horsepower

[Redog]

Yeah but anything can get sucked up into it

[-Alero-]

well your on the race track..... there isnt exactly cow poop flying at you

[mike2002]

Originally posted by Fast Eddie@Mar 28 2005, 04:12 PM
The alternator is going to produce a load on the engine as long is it is mechanically attached to the crank, only way to reduce that drag is to remove it (not advisable if you have a street driven car). The amount of resistance being produced by the alternator is also a constant, regardless of current is being drawn from the battery. So adding an electric fan will not produce more drag on the engine b/c the alternator is not a variable resistance unit, its either there or its not.

So yeah BS :P

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OWNED

lol, jk

redog, you may want to edit that

the reason A/C takes away more power is when you turn it on, the clutch engages and the a/c pully gets very hard to turn. that robs you of power. when its off, the a/c pully is just free spinning. your alternator has no such clutch, its always the same amount of resistance to spin it.

are you sure the stock rims are 42lbs? i have the 16" polished 2001+ gls rims, and they feel very very light to begin with, they dont feel like 42lbs to me. i can put it on a scale next time i take it off, i think you have a 99 right redog? i know they had a different style rim, maybe it weighs more. If your 17's weigh'd the exact same as my 16"'s (im just saying if) your 17's would pressent more of a drag on your car than my 16's. this is because your weight would be positioned farther out from the center axis, it all has to do with physics.

also, running a smaller diamter tire doesn't change the rolling resistance. a smaller diameter tire is basically changing your cars overall drive ratio. putting a smaller tire on is like changing your gear ratio from 3.05 to 3.15, the amount it changes obviously depends on how much of a difference in diamter you do

[Fast Eddie]

That last para. should read a smaller wheel/tire combo not just the tires, sorry Im a stickler for the details

[Redog]

Originally posted by mike2002+Mar 28 2005, 09:37 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mike2002 @ Mar 28 2005, 09:37 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Fast Eddie@Mar 28 2005, 04:12 PM
The alternator is going to produce a load on the engine as long is it is mechanically attached to the crank, only way to reduce that drag is to remove it (not advisable if you have a street driven car). The amount of resistance being produced by the alternator is also a constant, regardless of current is being drawn from the battery. So adding an electric fan will not produce more drag on the engine b/c the alternator is not a variable resistance unit, its either there or its not.

So yeah BS :P

Quoted post

OWNED

lol, jk

redog, you may want to edit that

the reason A/C takes away more power is when you turn it on, the clutch engages and the a/c pully gets very hard to turn. that robs you of power. when its off, the a/c pully is just free spinning. your alternator has no such clutch, its always the same amount of resistance to spin it.

are you sure the stock rims are 42lbs? i have the 16" polished 2001+ gls rims, and they feel very very light to begin with, they dont feel like 42lbs to me. i can put it on a scale next time i take it off, i think you have a 99 right redog? i know they had a different style rim, maybe it weighs more. If your 17's weigh'd the exact same as my 16"'s (im just saying if) your 17's would pressent more of a drag on your car than my 16's. this is because your weight would be positioned farther out from the center axis, it all has to do with physics.

also, running a smaller diamter tire doesn't change the rolling resistance. a smaller diameter tire is basically changing your cars overall drive ratio. putting a smaller tire on is like changing your gear ratio from 3.05 to 3.15, the amount it changes obviously depends on how much of a difference in diamter you do

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[/b][/quote]
I have the 2000 GLS.

I weighed the wheels and I came out with 42 lbs. I'll try weighing them again next week. They are in my storage locker right now and I'm moving out of there on Sunday

[mike2002]

Originally posted by Fast Eddie@Mar 29 2005, 12:02 AM
That last para. should read a smaller wheel/tire combo not just the tires, sorry Im a stickler for the details

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but i didn't say lower profile tire, i said smaller diameter tire. so if you start with a 26" diameter tire, and change it to a 25" diameter tire, you've affected your gear ratio (not really, but it has the same effect) no matter what size your wheel is :P

[3.4 Euro Alero]

What about the cheapest mod of all to increase power, loose some weight. If you are a fat as*, all that extra weight will definitely slow you down.

[kwhauck]

passenger seat will save you 40+ pounds, 15-30lbs from the spare and jack, there is other things, but those are the major ones.....

[BlackJack]

ok, ya got me that time. I think it must be #$%@ the Tourette Syndrome that causes me to blurt out crap without thinking.
and wouldn't removing the engine reduce several hundred pounds as well? heh heh
<#$?*!

From what I've heard, a crank pulley is worth more than just 2 HP. Assuming you drop 4 lbs of rotating mass from the crank, you should gain closer to 8 HP. The alternator pulley I'd believe, but I've heard ~2.6 hp per 1 lb. of rotating mass removed from the crankshaft. Alternator pulleys are little anyways, so it'd be hard to subtract much weight from them.

[mike2002]

the ffp unit was dyno'd to add 7hp 8tq by someone

turbo alero, how hard is it to take out the passenger seat? mine is probably closer to 50lbs since its leather.

[BLK03GXS]

Originally posted by mike2002@Apr 4 2005, 04:28 AM
the ffp unit was dyno'd to add 7hp 8tq by someone

turbo alero, how hard is it to take out the passenger seat? mine is probably closer to 50lbs since its leather.

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its easy, 2 bolts

[Fast Eddie]

Originally posted by mike2002+Mar 29 2005, 07:27 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mike2002 @ Mar 29 2005, 07:27 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Fast Eddie@Mar 29 2005, 12:02 AM
That last para. should read a smaller wheel/tire combo not just the tires, sorry Im a stickler for the details

Quoted post

but i didn't say lower profile tire, i said smaller diameter tire. so if you start with a 26" diameter tire, and change it to a 25" diameter tire, you've affected your gear ratio (not really, but it has the same effect) no matter what size your wheel is :P

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[/b][/quote]


OWNED LOL

a TB by itself is NOT pointless.....my friend's 01 GAGT gained 8whp with just adding a 62mm TB to his stock manifolds.

[b-spot]

Originally posted by Fast Eddie@Mar 28 2005, 04:12 PM
The alternator is going to produce a load on the engine as long is it is mechanically attached to the crank, only way to reduce that drag is to remove it (not advisable if you have a street driven car). The amount of resistance being produced by the alternator is also a constant, regardless of current is being drawn from the battery. So adding an electric fan will not produce more drag on the engine b/c the alternator is not a variable resistance unit, its either there or its not.

So yeah BS :P

Quoted post

Wow, you really have no idea about anything and you've proven it again.

Do you know how systems of energy work? You can't just take energy from the engine and not have it go anywhere.

Do me a favour and go get a hand driven generator. Hook up a lightbulb to the generator with a switch in line. Now turn the switch off. Crank the generator. While cranking the generator turn the switch on. Wow!! It just got harder to turn! Isn't that neat!?

Turns out energy can't be created or destroyed, so if your not producing as large of an electrical draw, it takes less force to turn your generator/alternator. This has to do with the 'magnetic feilds' but we'll save that one for a later lesson.

Science and Cars 101 brought to you by b-spot.

[Fast Eddie]

You are correct the alt turns on and off but it is based on the state of the battery, not the total vehicle draw, this happens regardless of the presence of an electric fan. But since the alternator produces a constant output, when engaged, regardless of the draw on the battery (which in this system acts like a huge capacitor) the only thing that would posibily change is the amount of times the alt is charging and possibly the duration, And that is difficult to control. So yes if the alt comes on in the 15+ seconds you are going down the track you will lose power, a negligable amount but a net loss. However, you run that risk w/o an electric fan.

I'm probably missing something else but I'm sure someone will straighten me out. And I humbly aplogize for the above oversight of the fact the alt does turn on and off, so to speak.

[b-spot]

Originally posted by Fast Eddie@May 3 2005, 09:59 AM
You are correct the alt turns on and off but it is based on the state of the battery, not the total vehicle draw, this happens regardless of the presence of an electric fan. But since the alternator produces a constant output, when engaged, regardless of the draw on the battery (which in this system acts like a huge capacitor) the only thing that would posibily change is the amount of times the alt is charging and possibly the duration, And that is difficult to control. So yes if the alt comes on in the 15+ seconds you are going down the track you will lose power, a negligable amount but a net loss. However, you run that risk w/o an electric fan.

I'm probably missing something else but I'm sure someone will straighten me out. And I humbly aplogize for the above oversight of the fact the alt does turn on and off, so to speak.

Quoted post

It doesn't actually turn on and off, its always 'on', but the mechanical force necessary to turn it depends on the current draw placed on it (assume fixed voltage). Because its all one large circuit (charging/battery/accessories) your alternator is in effect actually directly supplying power to your accessories (stereo, ignition system, fan, lights, computer). Ideally, your battery should only ever discharge (slightly) upon start up, and should be at full charge after a very short time of the engine running, which is why, conceptually, your alternator is hooked straight up to your fan/stereo/lights etc.

[Fast Eddie]

You are correct again, the alt does not turn on and off I am mistaken. (Im not doing to good with typing these explanations, i think the medium is the problem)

Anyways, the mechanical force to turn the alternator is not based on electric load. The alt produces a set amount of electrical energy, based on engine speed (there are more variables but we assume they are constant). That is then manipulated by the diode pack to convert from AC to DC and by the voltage regulator to meet the demands placed on the battery. Conceptually the alt is powering the whole electric system. In reality the battery is powering the elec. system and the alternator is maintaining the battery's amount of chemical energy. Like I said before the battery acts like a huge Cap. in this system.

The alt changes mechanical energy (via a crank pulley) to electrical energy. (I will leave it that simple cause I believe this application is that simple.) When that electrical comes into the battery it is turned into chemical energy and stored. When an electrical device needs electrical energy the battery converts the stored chemical energy into electrical energy and voila. If there were no volt regulator on the alt. then when the battery had converted all the electrical energy it could store into chem. energy the electrical energy would begin turning into thermal energy and you could experince some serious problems, like the battery melting, or worse. The whole system is a push-pull system with the battery in the middle. The alt pushes energy into the battery and accesories pull the energy from the battery. The battery is constanly discharging, however in normal operation it is constantly charging as well.

Your argument is like saying the hose fills my pool faster when I want more water or slower when it is full. In reality the hose fills at a constant rate but the number of people splashing (accesories) determines how much water leaves the pool. The beauty of electricity is that you can maintain the same power, and manipulate the Amps and voltage to suit your needs. Kinda like saying there is less water entering the pool but its wetter.

In conclusion an electric fan does not cost wheel (or engine) horsepower.

[b-spot]

Originally posted by Fast Eddie+May 3 2005, 12:24 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Fast Eddie @ May 3 2005, 12:24 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Anyways, the mechanical force to turn the alternator is not based on electric load.
[/b]

Not true, the mechanical force to turn an alternator/generator IS a function of electric load. Like I said before, get a hand crank generator/alternator and feel it for yourself, or just look up the equations to calculate force and output for generators/alternators.

Originally posted by Fast Eddie@May 3 2005, 12:24 PM
Like I said before the battery acts like a huge Cap. in this system.

Yep, the battery is just there for cases when the alternator can't keep up (very high electrical load, or times when the car isn't running).

Originally posted by Fast Eddie@May 3 2005, 12:24 PM
when the battery had converted all the electrical energy it could store into chem. energy the electrical energy would begin turning into thermal energy and you could experince some serious problems, like the battery melting, or worse.

Not true. If the alternator was generating the same amount of electricity, it needs somewhere to go, and for that to happen, something needs to heat up, give off radiation, sound, etc. What happens is the battery stops drawing charge from the alternator and the mechanical force on the alternator is reduced to that necessary to overcome the internal friction.

Originally posted by Fast Eddie@May 3 2005, 12:24 PM
The whole system is a push-pull system with the battery in the middle. The alt pushes energy into the battery and accesories pull the energy from the battery. The battery is constanly discharging, however in normal operation it is constantly charging as well.

The alternator doesn't 'push' energy. It is drawn. Also, the battery isn't constantly discharging. If the charging/discharging you speak of are equal, the battery stays in equilibrium.

<!--QuoteBegin-Fast Eddie@May 3 2005, 12:24 PM
Your argument is like saying the hose fills my pool faster when I want more water or slower when it is full. In reality the hose fills at a constant rate but the number of people splashing (accesories) determines how much water leaves the pool. The beauty of electricity is that you can maintain the same power, and manipulate the Amps and voltage to suit your needs. Kinda like saying there is less water entering the pool but its wetter.
[/quote]

No, my argument comes from physics. Its like saying it is the same to fill the pool when its 10 feet above the pump as when its 10 feet below the pump.

Seriously man, read up about it, I'm not kidding here. If you can get ahold of a hand generator its pretty cool to feel the difference just a light bulb makes... and then imagine what a couple 12" subs are doing to your alternator.

[-Alero-]

dare I say? owned?