Headers

[green99gls]

I have been to many sites looking for some headers for our car and I dont seem to find anything except The Other Guys headers.

What are some other brands of headers that are available?

If you had to go in progression of best hp for the buck, after buying an intake/exhaust, would the headers be the next logical part to upgrade?

[FormulaNERD]

S&S has a set of headers as well.

[green99gls]

I notice when reading your mods Formulanerd that you do not have headers listed. Do you own the S&S headers or know anyone that does? How do they compare to the other guys product in performance and quality?

[FormulaNERD]

nope, no headers.... not sure who has them, sorry

[turtles_ride]

I haven't done many engine mods yet, and i'm not sure what i will do, but what exactly are the headers, and how would getting different ones improve your horsepower. I think i've heard of people porting and polishing their own, but i'm not sure whats involved or what benefits come from it, or why. Anyone care to explain? Sorry to hijack your thread green99gls.

[kwhauck]

TOG headers are better IMO, and they are dyno proven and also have a great warranty

[Alerosince99]

Headers replace the stock exhaust manifolds.

Dont bother trying to port the stockers.

Headers alow the exhaust gases to escape faster. Better exit flow.

Both tog and S&S headers are similar. Small differances but Im sure overall hp is probably pretty close between the two.

[FormulaNERD]

and the s&s you can get without the flex pipe for 350.

[turtles_ride]

so if you get headers, does this sort of solve the problem with blowing the manifold gaskets? Just wondering.

[FormulaNERD]

no, big difference between intake and exhaust manifold.

[-Alero-]

you have to buy a flex pipe!? :blink:

[Redog]

I just got the S&S today :D But with getting the hood, I'm waiting until January to install them

[green99gls]

I would say let me know how they are Redog but I dont think I can wait until January. Thats a long time to have something sitting around. I would go nuts in anticipation.

[Redog]

I will but like I said with buying the hood and going to England in January, installing them is not in the cards right now

[green99gls]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD@Oct 11 2004, 07:59 PM
and the s&s you can get without the flex pipe for 350.
I apologize for my stupidity about cars I am just now really starting to get into modding and havent learned much yet. What is the difference between having a flex pipe and not having one. 350 is obviously much cheaper than about 700 for TOG's

[Alerosince99]

If you dont get the flex pipe you will have to have a exhaust shop create one.

[green99gls]

Originally posted by Alerosince99@Oct 12 2004, 03:10 PM
If you dont get the flex pipe you will have to have a exhaust shop create one.


So let me get this straight.

If you buy the TOG headers you dont need to get a flex pipe because the headers already have it built on. But if you go with the S&S headers, you have the choice of purchasing with or without the flex pipe.

If this is the case and Im assuming correctly any ideas on the cost to have a shop create that piece?

[Alerosince99]

Yes the TOG's come with a flex pipe.

Im not sure on the s&s but I kind of remember them selling the flexpipe attached to a cat which bumped the price up. See the picutre below. The cat is attached to the flex pipe.


S & S Headers (https://ssl10.mysecureserver.com/bosstoolscom/store/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=547)

https://ssl10.mysecureserver.com/bosstoolscom/store/store/catalog/3400Hwith34cat.JPG

[Crazytaxi37]

I love my TOG's. I little on the loud side but that may have to do with having no CAT.

[green99gls]

Originally posted by Crazytaxi37@Oct 12 2004, 05:21 PM
I love my TOG's. I little on the loud side but that may have to do with having no CAT.
Why did you remove the CAT

[Alerosince99]

the only purpose the cat serves is for emissions. In terms of performance it is just another restriction.

[Alerosince99]

Originally posted by Crazytaxi37@Oct 12 2004, 04:21 PM
I love my TOG's. I little on the loud side but that may have to do with having no CAT.
I can imagine. I have my togs with a 2.5 inch carsound cat and it is loud as hell. My friends always know when I'm coming.

[Crazytaxi37]

It's a game of give and take. I gain HP, i gotta give up a lil torque.

[green99gls]

About how much performance should I expect to see when I put headers onto my current set up which is a naich cai and slp exhaust.

Both Alerosince 99 and crazy have TOG's right.

[green99gls]

It would seem our cars would be very similiar alerosince99 if I get my headers. Roughly what are you runninng hp wise.

[Grouch]

I'd say around a 20hp gain at the wheels with those mods. Springs dyno'd his car after he installed the TOG's and showed a 19hp gain at the wheels. I do not recall if he had a custom exhaust or intake. I'm thinking he did though.

[green99gls]

Also is there a big difference between nickel coated and silver ceramic for the extra 200?

[green99gls]

Originally posted by Grouch@Oct 12 2004, 09:07 PM
I'd say around a 20hp gain at the wheels with those mods. Springs dyno'd his car after he installed the TOG's and showed a 19hp gain at the wheels. I do not recall if he had a custom exhaust or intake. I'm thinking he did though.
So your saying that just adding the headers gave him close to 20 at the wheels. This doesnt include the 4-5 should expect from adding the CAI and slp exhaust does it.

[Grouch]

I do not recall if he had a custom exhaust or intake. I'm thinking he did though.

[Alerosince99]

When I originally dynoed I hit right around 160. I did have a rather large exhaust leak at the time and they did the pull in I believe second gear. Third is one to one but it kept droping out. (poopy dyno operator) and they didnt have fans running in the front to create air.

I would guess with the exhaust leak fixed that Im about 165-170. I would love to dyno it again but that aint happening till the next round is completed.

[Crazytaxi37]

you dyno'ed on a dynojet didn't you???

if so I was at 167.2 whp w/ just a cai and slp

[Alerosince99]

yeah it was a dynojet.

Its all good as long as you stay with the same type so you can compare your past results.

Mustang dyno will typically read less and some will say it is more accurate.

[Alerosince99]

Damn 167 with just intake an exhaust is pretty impressive. You must have a little bit of a factory freak. ;) Heh or else I have a factory anitfreak! I may have to do one more dyno before the next round of mods. I dont think my base should be that far off unless something was majorily wrong.

Wish I would of had time to do a quarter this year. That makes it easier for comparisons.

[Crazytaxi37]

Yes it is, that's what all my numbers are on.

The conversion is multiply the sureflow number by 1.1 to get your dynojet number.

152=167.2

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by green99gls@Oct 12 2004, 07:09 PM
Also is there a big difference between nickel coated and silver ceramic for the extra 200?
this depends on what your looking to do with the car.
nickel is more for corrosion than anything
the ceramic is to hold in heat
the new ceramic does a killer job of that.
holding in more heat keeps exhaust gas velocity up which makes more torque
how much more? couldnt say I haven't done back to back runs with just changing between the 2 coatings.
ceramic also will not disscolor or blue like the nickel.

the runs I did with 18-19hp gains were with the nickel coated headers.

at the times of my dyno my car had CAI, tb, and exhaust before the header dyno for the base run
just headers were added between the 2 dynos

[1WhiteOSV]

so, would you say it'd be safe to just go w/ the nickel coated and save yourself the $200?

[smokinAMD]

Originally posted by Crazytaxi37@Oct 12 2004, 04:21 PM
I love my TOG's. I little on the loud side but that may have to do with having no CAT.
Did you have to run an o2 simulator since you don't have a cat?

[Crazytaxi37]

Did you have to run an o2 simulator since you don't have a cat?

Of course. If you don't, you will throw a code.

[smokinAMD]

Originally posted by Crazytaxi37@Oct 13 2004, 02:54 PM
Did you have to run an o2 simulator since you don't have a cat?

Of course. If you don't, you will throw a code.
Ah, just double checking. The one off PFYC?

[Crazytaxi37]

Yup

[green99gls]

I have noticed that everyone who has responded to this thread has the TOG's if they have headers. The biggest difference I can notice between the two is that S&S includes a high flow cat which TOG does not. Is there any difference between replacing the stock cat with a high flow cat

If there is no difference then I dont see the point in purchasing the S&S headers because they are a bit more expensive and everyone seems to be extremely happy with their TOG's.

[Alerosince99]

TOG's actually recommends not replacing the cat. If you dont replace it you will need to weld the flexpipe to the stock cat.

[green99gls]

thanks for the info everyone. I guess when I get the money it will be the TOG's

[bnight04]

where can you buy the tog headers??

[green99gls]

TOG's can be found at PFYC (http://www.pfyc.com), directly at The Other Guys (http://www.theotherguysproducts.com), or through springs fastest alero's business APOC (http://www1.ecxmall.com/stores/americanperformance/StoreFront.bok)

[Wildman]

You don't have to buy the cat with S&S headers. It's not listed on their web site that way, but if you call them directly, you can order just headers (bare), just headers (coated) or just headers and the flex pipe (not attached to a cat. just a flex that would weld to your stock cat)

Flex is I think $75
Coated Headers are I think $499
Bare are I think $349

don;t quote me on that tho ;)

[Youngblood77]

Originally posted by 1WhiteOSV@Oct 13 2004, 01:35 PM
so, would you say it'd be safe to just go w/ the nickel coated and save yourself the $200?
I don't think anyone answered this question, and I was thinking the same thing. Especially since NY salts the roads.....I'd want the headers to last without rotting out in 5 years. ;)

[Wildman]

The coating also helps keep in the heat. Uncoated headers can get very hot and make your engine run hot. Not good if you do city driving where there isnt a lot of air flow. Also, the coating will make them perform better, and also as stated, make them last much longer. When I buy my headers, im getting them coated because, I dont want to have to replace them in a couple years when they rot through. And who knows what the availability will be on headers in a few years for the 3400, so I dont want to be stuck having to buy new stock manifolds.

[1WhiteOSV]

Alright....on ssheaders.com it says "coated headers" or "raw headers" and from TOG it says "nickel coated" or "ceramic coated"...so my question is:

Are the "coated headers" from S&S ceramic or nickel coated?......

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by springs fastest alero+Oct 12 2004, 08:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (springs fastest alero @ Oct 12 2004, 08:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-green99gls@Oct 12 2004, 07:09 PM
Also is there a big difference between nickel coated and silver ceramic for the extra 200?
this depends on what your looking to do with the car.
nickel is more for corrosion than anything
the ceramic is to hold in heat
the new ceramic does a killer job of that.
holding in more heat keeps exhaust gas velocity up which makes more torque
how much more? couldnt say I haven't done back to back runs with just changing between the 2 coatings.
ceramic also will not disscolor or blue like the nickel.

[/b][/quote]
:thumbsup:

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by 1WhiteOSV@Oct 17 2004, 08:45 PM
:

Are the "coated headers" from S&S ceramic or nickel coated?......
jet-hot or somthing like it
S&S sends out for coating

[1WhiteOSV]

wtf?..lol...is that as good/better/worse than ceramic?

[1WhiteOSV]

Okay...I just got off the phone with S&S Headers and I can get CERAMIC coated headers AND flex w/o the cat for $575. That's DAMN cheaper than TOG's...but the downside is that their prices are going up THIS WEEK because of the increase in steel prices. So I think I am gonna order mine 2night/2morrow because this is a damn good price.

[kwhauck]

TOG headers are way better....but whatever, it's your car....

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by 99Alero_Boy@Oct 18 2004, 09:48 PM
TOG headers are way better....but whatever, it's your car....
way better huh? i'm sure we'd all like to see some sort of documentation to prove this.

its all personal preference, and you dont mention that in your post.

[Wildman]

Anyone know if I need to buy an O2 Simulator to use with the S&S??? Or are all the proper holes places in the pipes and stuff ????

[kwhauck]

i am a firm believer in documented proof, i have seen dyno results from the TOG headers and none from the SandS headers, also what kind of warranty do the SandS headers have? i know for a fact the TOG headers have an awesome warranty...one guy on grandamgt.com had his headers start to get surface rust....he called TOG and they immediately sent him a replacement...and later called him to report there was a defective chemical breakdown of the coating in the old headers he had......very good customer service is also important to me...

[Wildman]

I agree TOG is a great product. Just because nobody has dynoed before and after with S&S headers doesnt mean we should be wary of them. I am confident that the performance is comperable to TOG. Also, seems that most people dont realize that coated headers from S&S have a LIFETIME WARRANTY. PERIOD

[FormulaNERD]

yea, and i see a bunch of rods at the track that use S&S, and never heard of TOG till i had my alero. i know it's different for each application, but that, coupled with cost, has never made me think twice about choosing s&s after the cf hood.

[Naich]

IMO, you won't see THAT much of a difference between TOG and S&S performance wise if they are both ceramic coated... but TOG does have the dyno results so you can't argue with that. $575 sounds like a great deal for ceramic headers though. Nice find!

[FormulaNERD]

thanks niach.

now lets compare dollar to horsepower. well it doesnt really matter how much hp the s&s will add (it's obviously comparable)... still a better buy.

[Wildman]

Welp, ordered my S&S headres today. probably be a couple weeks till I get them, but i will make sure and do a complete write up on them so that everyone can have all the facts and info to make their own educated decisions when they want to buy headers :thumbsup:

[1WhiteOSV]

I'm ordering mine 2morrow.....I will do the same!

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by FormulaNERD@Oct 18 2004, 05:11 PM
thanks niach.

now lets compare dollar to horsepower. well it doesnt really matter how much hp the s&s will add (it's obviously comparable)... still a better buy.
you cant say somthing is a better buy when you have NO idea how much or how little power S&S headers will make.
if its half the power obviously they are a waste.
and you can't compare dollar to hp when you dont know how many hp S&S headers make

lets compare the facts for a sec.

S&S headers are offered with a lifetime warranty when coated
TOG headers have a lifetime waranty period
S&S headers are 3/8" flanges and 16 gauge steel primaries
TOG headers are 1/2" flanges and 14 gauge steel primaries

tog headers are 1.5" primaries and "tunned length" for great hp and torque increases. dyno results show gains all accross the rpm band
S&S use 1 5/8" primaries from my understanding
which is better for 300+ wheel hp applications but will actually hurt low end power in most applications.
this has been observed on a customers car in canada. his car is supercharged and he still noticed a lack of low end power.

tog headers are CARB certified include all mounting hardware, flex pipe, gaskets, and O2 extension.

S&S are not carb certified and mounts the O2 sensor in a spot where it can only read the front bank. so if an injector failed on the rear side of the engine the O2 sensor can no longer pick it up. same as if it was running extremely rich. the O2 now only sees half of the engine. not sure if they have hardware and gaskets or not

if you buy S&S headers with no cat they do not include a flex.

Honestly you get what you pay for.
but first lets put some things aside
forget I'm a tog dealer for a sec but remember I own and alero and on my car I have tog headers. also remember I've been looking into parts for our car including S&S headers for my self for over 3 years now.
also remember my car has been on the dyno more times by its self then prolly every other alero combined.
60+ dyno pulls on file.

Not all headers are created equal. header making is an art
anyone can weld pipe together but 18+ hp in a FWD V6 at the wheels is insane.
tog puts down more power in other applications than the compitition.
in the grand prix market tog is the number one choice.
and grand prix owners have tested S&S headers

[green99gls]

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
So much knowledge and so little time to share it with the rest of the world. :o

No, all joking aside if that info had been presented back on page one I dont think this link would be on page 4 and still going strong after close to two weeks.

Thanks Springs

[green99gls]

Wildman and 1WhiteOSV both of you have ordered your headers from S&S now?

If this is the case I think I speak for a lot of people when I ask if its possible for either of you to get your cars dynoed before and after installation of these headers. We have read Springs' comments a couple of threads ago and I am really curious to see what performance gains the S&S headers will give proven.

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by green99gls@Oct 20 2004, 08:20 AM
Wildman and 1WhiteOSV both of you have ordered your headers from S&S now?

If this is the case I think I speak for a lot of people when I ask if its possible for either of you to get your cars dynoed before and after installation of these headers. We have read Springs' comments a couple of threads ago and I am really curious to see what performance gains the S&S headers will give proven.
yes a dyno before and after header installation by either of you would be greatly appreciated...

[1WhiteOSV]

Originally posted by springs fastest alero@Oct 20 2004, 06:18 AM




tog headers are CARB certified include all mounting hardware, flex pipe, gaskets, and O2 extension.

not sure if they have hardware and gaskets or not

if you buy S&S headers with no cat they do not include a flex.


Seeing that I literally called and talked to S&S......I can say this:

their headers DO come w/ hardware (gaskets & all)

you CAN buy just the headers and flex WITHOUT the cat ($575 because that is what I am doing)

unless you plan on taking the headers off and on a lot, the flanges will hold up fine on the S&S...plus I am getting it CERAMIC coated which means they've gotta lifetime warranty.

I am sure TOG's are great headers (they better be for $800+) but not all of us can afford them....it's kinda like going w/ a naichspeed CAI instead of a Dr. Speed (both do well, one probably a lil bit better, but best one for the $$ is pry the cheaper one)

plus, S&S has awesome reviews over on GAGT

*****ALSO***** if anyone want's to shell out $60 for me to make a dyno run before then another $60 after, I'd be glad to but otherwise I don't think I am gonna....there's only one dyno place around where I live and it's expensive as hell. Maybe I will though..idk...we'll see how my paycheck on Friday is lol ;)

[kwhauck]

that'd be cool if you could.....that does seem a little expensive.....usually they will give you 3 runs for like $100

[1WhiteOSV]

it might be a while guys.....i had a mishap on the interstate w/ some @$$hole who cut me off....and ran me into a pothole on the shoulder of the road...look..
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/424000-424999/424360_139_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/424000-424999/424360_140_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/424000-424999/424360_141_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/424000-424999/424360_142_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/424000-424999/424360_143_full.jpg

[Wildman]

I would love to dyno my car, dont know if it would be too expensive or what, but it would be very nice to put an end to the speculation of S&S vs TOG.
i don;t really care if TOG is better or if S&S is better. If its a couple of horses difference, i don't really give a crap. The price was good at S&S and thats primarily why I went with S&S, plus the good reviews. Tell me where a dyno is in the Pittsburgh area, and I will consider it, to put an end to all the arguing. Other than that, I am satisfied with my purchase.

[Naich]

Honestly, the "debate" won't ever end untill someone actually dyno's S&S headers (which I can't believe they havn't done themselves). All I'm saying is that most everyone on gagt who has had S&S headers gives them rave reviews.

[1WhiteOSV]

lol...everybody send Wildman like $1.00 so he can use it for a dyno.....j/k

[Wildman]

Ok, so i think there is a Mustang Dyno near where I live, but i have no idea about anything about dynos. Do I need a Jet dyno or whatever, or a mustang or something???? does it matter??? something said it is a chassis dyno, what is the difference, what does it mean, i am clueless thus far..???

[mike2002]

you'd have to dyno it before and after, and with the same mods as the car that god 19whp for a fair comparision, he may have had supporting mods

plus the borla is a little bit of a bottleneck considering its 2.25" and the headers are 2.5"

people assume togs are better because they cost more. just like when i worked for best buy people assumed bose was the best we had because of the name and it costed more, little did they know how crappy it was (not saying togs are crappy) and you could get a better system for half the price.

[Wildman]

I have APOC CAI and Borla Cat back. I think his car was the exact same at the time, or he may have had a TB also. We willl have to wait for the official word on that, but I found a Mustang dyno place pretty close to me, so im going to call them today and get prices.

[Wildman]

Ok, just got off the phone. $100 for 2 runs and $25 for every additional pull.

So im gona have to drop $200 to get these things dyno'd-----ouch :wacko:
I think im still gonna do it tho...

[Alerosince99]

Check your local clubs and see if they are doing a dyno day. My last dyno I did on my z28 I got 2 pulls for $40. Also you can get a list of close dynojets by going to dynojets webpage.

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by Wildman@Oct 22 2004, 08:38 AM
I have APOC CAI and Borla Cat back. I think his car was the exact same at the time, or he may have had a TB also. We willl have to wait for the official word on that, but I found a Mustang dyno place pretty close to me, so im going to call them today and get prices.
I also had a tb but my car did have borla at that time. as far as cost goes and if they are the best or not. I've ran into this before but if you actually look what tog has into their headers they are making less off them than S&S is.
CARB certification is NOT cheap

[FormulaNERD]

Originally posted by springs fastest alero+Oct 23 2004, 12:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (springs fastest alero @ Oct 23 2004, 12:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Wildman@Oct 22 2004, 08:38 AM
I have APOC CAI and Borla Cat back. I think his car was the exact same at the time, or he may have had a TB also. We willl have to wait for the official word on that, but I found a Mustang dyno place pretty close to me, so im going to call them today and get prices.
I also had a tb but my car did have borla at that time. as far as cost goes and if they are the best or not. I've ran into this before but if you actually look what tog has into their headers they are making less off them than S&S is.
CARB certification is NOT cheap [/b][/quote]
luckily i dont live in cali.

[1WhiteOSV]

well I went and talked to my local Dyno place and they told me that I could do 2 runs before the headers then 2 after for a total of $100. That's damn good so when I get them, I will be sure to dyno them as well!. May be springtime though before I get em.

[rowdygls]

not to drag up old stuff...but what happened with this. im curious

[Wildman]

Well, it hasnt really been ignored, I did finally get my S&S headers installed, and got a dyno run before that. 143HP 179TQ with CAI and Borla cat back. I am outta money right now, cause I ended up having to buy a new cat for my car (non high flow. just a universal) And now I am getting a SES light, so i'm assuming its going to be an O2 sensor problem, so i'm going to have to buy that too. Anyways, to answer your question, Once I get some of these problems taken care of and some bills paid, I'm doing my post S&S headers dyno pull.

[rowdygls]

sweet deal. thanks for the update