Alright B, lets talk coolers

[sleepyalero]

So from what i understand, the charger is basically at its limits at 10psi at 6000 rpm... Is this true? Also have heard it can be rough on it if using it alot.

You seem to know these charger more then anyone else. Give me some insight... Can you go higher then 10psi? Im looking to use a 2.2" pulley with the setup. Which i was told would be around 9.5 psi....

And also, custom aftercooler setup... Basically to prevent heat soak, and generating to much heat where i lose power instead of gain it. So what are my options? Ive seen you did a setup awhile back on your white car (found pictures on GAGT of it) curious if you have pictures of where the piping ran, where the cooler was sitting, etc. and if you can tell me all the parts used, and if its worth it.

[AleroB888]

8-10 psi with a 2.2 pulley on an MP62 kit is about right for a stock engine. I have that on my '03 Alero, detailed here:

http://www.aleromod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36112 .

It is possible to get more boost with a 2.0 or even a 1.9 pulley. That may get you a better track time, but for most people not practical on a daily driver. There is more wear and tear and potential for slippage on the drive belt as well as the pulleys, which are only available in aluminum in smaller diameters. As far as wear on the 'charger for the street, the kit has held up for me with the small pulleys over the years. You will have to be sure of good pulley alignment, and probably replace the belt more often. And you would need alcohol injection or an intercooler to take full advantage of the extra boost at that point.

The MP62 kit is heat sensitive because of it's placement in the engine compartment. It will pick up exhaust manifold/crossover heat, and cooling system fan heat in warm weather. In the Winter, no problem -- the extra heat absorption is a benefit when the car needs to warm up quickly and help atomize fuel. It's a blast driving it in cold, dry weather.

On a hot Summer day, quite different. Your upper intake manifold temps can easily go up to 150 degrees after a hot soak -- even without a supercharger installed. I wouldn't recommend wrapping the headers, but you could design an effective heat shield for them. Redirecting the cooling system fan airflow is another idea, but difficult to pull off. Ironically, if you have the cooling fans come on at a lower temperature, it makes the upper intake manifold (and the supercharger) heat up even faster.
( to be continued :) )

[Papa Rad17]

I like what is happening here. mmmmm, pictures to top things off?? :thumb:

[sleepyalero]

My fans are tuned to be on all summer once at operating temp. You think fans would help keep it cooler?

I do agree with the extra heat because it sits right on top of the header basically.

The fans being on has helped keep the car cooler in hot weather. It stays right under half with the fans on. If they were off it would be slightly over.

[AleroB888]

My fans are tuned to be on all summer once at operating temp. You think fans would help keep it cooler?

I do agree with the extra heat because it sits right on top of the header basically.

The fans being on has helped keep the car cooler in hot weather. It stays right under half with the fans on. If they were off it would be slightly over.

The engine coolant temperature (ECT) will be lowered with the fans on, out of necessity to keep it from overheating and knock, but in the process the hot air is directed to the intake area, which raises the intake air temperature (IAT) and reduces power.

Once you start scanning for IAT at the upper intake manifold, you will see how this effect occurs. Also scan for "Delivered Trans Torque" to compare performance on hot and cold days.

[sleepyalero]

Yeah, ive messed with all that stuff. But i will be hoenst im not a very good tuner.

I had paul tune my car in the past, but i hate bothering him now because he seems like a busy dude and i love his help, and expertise. But it is hard to tune because i have to scan, send it via email, then he explains to me what to adjust, then i scan again and email him another for more adjustments until he sees its good.

That method can take weeks. If its raining or crappy weather, i cant get a scan. Then once i do have a scan, its when he has time to mess with it, then when i have time to get another scan for him, etc. its a long process. But hes a damn good dude, and knows his stuff. So paul if you are reading this i am forever greatful for your help.


Aside from that, ive been debating getting a dyno tune once the charger and bigger injectors is installed. Paul is willing to help adjust my injector tables so the car can drive efficient enough to get to a shop with a dyno.

Unless you want to tune my car, B? Haha you are closer to me then Paul is (canada)

[AleroB888]

You should be able to use the tune from my 2003 Alero which has the same kit, except I have 28 lb injectors in it, and a different trans.

I think yours will be the only supercharged V6 kit with a manual trans.

[sleepyalero]

Does your 03 have the same bolt ons as i? And i will be using 42.5 injectors.

[AleroB888]

Does your 03 have the same bolt ons as i? And i will be using 42.5 injectors.

You can use the same tune you have now, except for a few tables that can be copied over to your file. That should be done by you as a starting point. Then road tests and scans will show what else needs to be done to improve it. I don't have the files on this computer, but I'll try to send one over later so you can look at it and compare the tune with what you have now. Then the only other thing is to change the injector flow rate (IFR) for the 42.5s.

[sleepyalero]

Yeah that could work. I already know ill have to make adjustments for the injectors.

But yeah, you can email it to me if you want. Just let me know. It will be a bit probably before i drive the car though.

[3500Alero]

You should be able to use the tune from my 2003 Alero which has the same kit, except I have 28 lb injectors in it, and a different trans.

I think yours will be the only supercharged V6 kit with a manual trans.

Would I be able to take a look at it too? I am also a noob to boost tuning and am having trouble finding somewhere to start. If not I understand. I think that we may have to start a separate boost tuning thread!

Sorry for the high jack

When do the s/c's start making boost? I take it that they are fairly predictable?

[sleepyalero]

Superchargers are usually pretty instant compared to a turbo.


Dont worry about the thread jack, you are here to learn and get help and its kinda senseless to stary another topic if its already being discussed now here haha.


On a side note, should i run 28's or 36's for the setup with my current mods?


I just found out 99 (year of car im buying) has a different injector harness then 00+ models. The car has 42's on it now. But since the 42's are PNP with the 99 model, and not mine, if i were to swap injectors then i have to modify both harness's for the injector swap, and i dont feel like messing with that. I dont want to have the car forever. The quicker i can pull parts i want and get rid of it the better.



But im thinking it could be a bit much for what i have... Would 36 be most ideal? Or will 28's do fine?

[AleroB888]

OK, I sent a file to the last email addy I had for you. Let me know if it gets there.

[AleroB888]

Would I be able to take a look at it too? I am also a noob to boost tuning and am having trouble finding somewhere to start. If not I understand. I think that we may have to start a separate boost tuning thread!

Sorry for the high jack

When do the s/c's start making boost? I take it that they are fairly predictable?

If you can read an HP Tuners file, yes. I can send one if you PM the address.

[3500Alero]

I think that 42's aren't really needed unless you are cammed or running more than 12psi. I have 36's waiting to go in my 3100 but I think that they may be a bit much while it is stock and under 10psi.

[3500Alero]

If you can read an HP Tuners file, yes. I can send one if you PM the address.

PM sent!

[AleroB888]

Superchargers are usually pretty instant compared to a turbo.


Dont worry about the thread jack, you are here to learn and get help and its kinda senseless to stary another topic if its already being discussed now here haha.


On a side note, should i run 28's or 36's for the setup with my current mods?


I just found out 99 (year of car im buying) has a different injector harness then 00+ models. The car has 42's on it now. But since the 42's are PNP with the 99 model, and not mine, if i were to swap injectors then i have to modify both harness's for the injector swap, and i dont feel like messing with that. I dont want to have the car forever. The quicker i can pull parts i want and get rid of it the better.



But im thinking it could be a bit much for what i have... Would 36 be most ideal? Or will 28's do fine?

I'm not sure if I still have one, but if you can get an extra late model harness I believe you can cut off the main connector and splice the '99 harness into it. But to start the SC build, 28 lb. will work fine, with no drivability issues.

[sleepyalero]

OK, I sent a file to the last email addy I had for you. Let me know if it gets there.


Awesome, i did get it! I will have to check that out once im closer to needing it. I get the car tomorrow then will work on everything else i need

I'm not sure if I still have one, but if you can get an extra late model harness I believe you can cut off the main connector and splice the '99 harness into it. But to start the SC build, 28 lb. will work fine, with no drivability issues.

So as of now my mods are: ported manifolds, MMS headers, no cat, 2.5inch exhaust, (SLP) supercharged (soon) and plan on running hopefully around 8-10psi. 6 speed trans. And thats really about it, 65mm TB and plenum spacers as well. So 28's should be no issue at all with everything you are thinking?

[sleepyalero]

Im getting mixed reviews. I asked someone this...

What was your duty cycle with the 36's on your setup?


His response:


Pretty close to maxed out, like 85-90%. There is no actual duty cycle reading when scanning, but you can scan the pulse width in milliseconds, and mine continued to increase up to the last 1000 rpm then went static and the AFR started leaning out, so I knew they were maxed out. The 36's are only good for about 260-280 hp. Need 42's above that.

[AleroB888]

Im getting mixed reviews. I asked someone this...

What was your duty cycle with the 36's on your setup?


His response:


Pretty close to maxed out, like 85-90%. There is no actual duty cycle reading when scanning, but you can scan the pulse width in milliseconds, and mine continued to increase up to the last 1000 rpm then went static and the AFR started leaning out, so I knew they were maxed out. The 36's are only good for about 260-280 hp. Need 42's above that.

You will get different interpretations of the scan data from people, the builds (and the PCM tuning in them) differ widely as well. In my case, I've used stock engines with no porting in the past. The duty cycles (IDC) are able to be scanned with HP Tuners. True, there is a range in which the injectors can possibly go static, and that is a danger for sure. But with the 36's on my stock engine, they only got close to that range for 1-2 seconds, just before shifting to the next gear at WOT. And that was with the MP90 at 10-14 psi. The only time I had mine go lean was because not keeping the gas tank full enough on 1/4-mile runs. The colder the weather is, the more danger of running lean at WOT, if you're already close to max on the injectors.

[AleroB888]

Awesome, i did get it! I will have to check that out once im closer to needing it. I get the car tomorrow then will work on everything else i need



So as of now my mods are: ported manifolds, MMS headers, no cat, 2.5inch exhaust, (SLP) supercharged (soon) and plan on running hopefully around 8-10psi. 6 speed trans. And thats really about it, 65mm TB and plenum spacers as well. So 28's should be no issue at all with everything you are thinking?

The unknowns here are how much more demanding the ported intakes and the response of the six-speed trans will be. But at this point, you don't have a 2.2 pulley yet, but will use a 2.5 to start with, right? I think 28's be enough for that.

[sleepyalero]

I plan to run a 2.2 pulley, i mean if im gonna spend 300$ plus on injectors i might as well go for what will be safest for what im going to do.


Future motor (hopefully spring sometime) will be cammed, 3500 top swapped with ported manifolds and i think heads, and supercharged. So i may need 42's for that.

[3500Alero]

I can tell you that #24's on a stock 3100 are not enough! Lol duty cycle hit 117% at 6-7 psi.

[sleepyalero]

Yeah i bet so! ^ that sounds dangerous lol


Well, i got the car, and removed the charger tonight. I need to figure out how to change the oil. And im curious if i can port match the charger for a 65mm TB. I need to remove mine off my car and see how close it would be to the edges. But it would be nice... That TB was 300$ i would hate to have to downgrade to stock...

Aside from that, the charger is pretty dirty, still needs some cleaning. But seems like its still in good working condition, so thats a plus.

I also need to block off the EGR port on the s/c. Anything in particular i should look for B?




http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/3C55FFE0-A2E6-4C5E-B3B6-D831298BA8EF_zpsbahoqtmz.jpg (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/natesalero/media/3C55FFE0-A2E6-4C5E-B3B6-D831298BA8EF_zpsbahoqtmz.jpg.html)

[sleepyalero]

Also, where would a boost gauge be best to hook up? On the GA it was connected to the port on the back of the UIM by the alternator.


And if i were to run a oil catch can, does that mean i can cap off the two ports on the supercharger that run to both front and rear PCV ports?

[AleroB888]

Also, where would a boost gauge be best to hook up? On the GA it was connected to the port on the back of the UIM by the alternator.


And if i were to run a oil catch can, does that mean i can cap off the two ports on the supercharger that run to both front and rear PCV ports?

1) Yeah, that's a good spot.

2) The original kit routed the rear PCV hose to the air filter housing. The front PCV hose would go to the catch can, then from catch can to supercharger vacuum port.

Also, the brake booster hose goes to a supercharger vacuum port. The spot where it was on the upper intake is a good spot to put an IAT sensor. Then the spot on the SC outlet where the IAT is now can be used for alcohol injection.

Need to get a better look at the pulley. Is there any play in the driveshaft when you rotate the pulley back and forth?

[AleroB888]

Well, i got the car, and removed the charger tonight. I need to figure out how to change the oil. And im curious if i can port match the charger for a 65mm TB. I need to remove mine off my car and see how close it would be to the edges. But it would be nice... That TB was 300$ i would hate to have to downgrade to stock...


Use a syringe and extract the oil and put it in a measuring cup. Get new oil from GM and replace it. :)

You should taper and smooth the edges of the inlet to 65 mm if you can. I use a 68mm TB on mine and it still works great.

[sleepyalero]

The 65mm TB is a TCE version, it is SMOOOOOOTH!

But you got pictures of yours being tapered? I would like to do that to run mine.


Thanks for all the other info, i spun the pulley by hand last night. Spun nice and easy... But i did not really check for "play" i will do that tonight when i get home and report back on that part.

And yeah i noticed there are vac lines everywhere haha


Oh, where is the drain and fill plug located on the mp62?

[sleepyalero]

Also, the charger made NO noise on the GA, didn't scream at WOT like i thought it would... Whats up with that?

[sleepyalero]

Another thing, what was required to make the m90 charger to run like the m62 kit. Did you take an m90 charger and swap parts from the m62 to make yours?

[3500Alero]

Another thing, what was required to make the m90 charger to run like the m62 kit. Did you take an m90 charger and swap parts from the m62 to make yours?

I believe he had a lot of the parts cast/ made for it. His write up on 60* has lots of details.

[sleepyalero]

Yeah i found that out. I wonder the cost...

[sleepyalero]

So the supercharger doesnt build boost, and does not whine at all.

The previous owner states that it built boost.. And he thinks the bypass valve is adjustable and should fix the issue after, but im thinking that the bypass is NOT adjustable, and at this point the supercharger is a paper weight right now... Any advice?

[AleroB888]

Well, you do have to make sure the rotors turn when you turn the pulley ;)

[sleepyalero]

Well i just bit the bullet, its going to a place for port/polish, full rebuild bypass valve replacement, oil change, and is going to be modified to work with a 65mm TB.

And honestly the charger spins by hand super easy, so that probably isnt even happening.

[sleepyalero]

Yeah for sure, the screws do not turn. Just looked through thr outlet pipe. No action.


This sucks.

[sleepyalero]

Yup, its no good.....

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/F7F9D718-19C8-4E06-90AA-0654D81FA4FA_zpswzlfs7sl.jpg (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/natesalero/media/F7F9D718-19C8-4E06-90AA-0654D81FA4FA_zpswzlfs7sl.jpg.html)


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/21A356DD-033B-4D8D-B0CE-D2E329543903_zpsfa9sezyq.jpg (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/natesalero/media/21A356DD-033B-4D8D-B0CE-D2E329543903_zpsfa9sezyq.jpg.html)

[AleroB888]

Could you take another pic of those parts side by side, end-on, not quite so close-up? I am having a tough time picturing how that happened....

[MMGT1]

Gonna fix it or return it bud? With the engine mods, along with running over 10 psi, even 42's are gonna cut it close. I'd just go to the 60's and if possible, 14psi. Theoretically, 14.5psi will double the output of the engine. Should put you just over 500chp and make in the 440whp range being a manual. 54lb would be "ideal" IMO, but the 60's from Bosch are a dam good unit and can pick em up pretty cheap.

[sleepyalero]

Could you take another pic of those parts side by side, end-on, not quite so close-up? I am having a tough time picturing how that happened....


You and me both. The first pic is just to show you the oil, its silver as all hell....

And the second pic of course the shaft, which snapped at the pulley....

Gonna fix it or return it bud? With the engine mods, along with running over 10 psi, even 42's are gonna cut it close. I'd just go to the 60's and if possible, 14psi. Theoretically, 14.5psi will double the output of the engine. Should put you just over 500chp and make in the 440whp range being a manual. 54lb would be "ideal" IMO, but the 60's from Bosch are a dam good unit and can pick em up pretty cheap.


Im going to do my best to fix it, funny you say that. Milzy, and a few others say 42's are overkill and i should run 36's. Plus these chargers to my knowledge max at 10psi, and will burn up fast if i run it at that psi to my understanding, if i had an m90 like b888 then i would be all for it. But i keep getting mixed reviews. Some say go big injectors. Some say smaller.

Some say push 14 psi, others say at 10 psi, the charger is maxed at 6000rpm.... And even at that rate its generating more heat then it is power. But i dont know. Would be nice to go over 10 psi.

[MMGT1]

Anyone run meth yet with one? Could be your answer. And the math doesn't jive bud...if you take it to 14 and make in the 500chp range, (500/.64)/6 gives 54.16lbs. Yes, there are a lot of specifics that denote the exact ones you need, but that puts you in the ballpark. Cheapest and easiest way, install the biggest ones you have. While scanning see how far they will take you, shut down run when injectors hit 85%. From that you'll be able to figure out exactly what you need to run. Pick an injector that gets you as close to 85% IDC as possible when engine is balls out...lol

[sleepyalero]

Ill try 42's or 36's. and we will see what happens. If i need to upgrade i will. I think B is running meth with an m90 thats setup like the m62....

But i dont think anyone has gone over 10 psi with these m62 kits.


I think the highest power with the m62 right now is 320whp. And hes running 36's.

[tw0123]

Aaron has 42's.... he said he ran both to see the differences as the spray patterns differ but there were minimal changes between them

[AleroB888]

Get a bid on a whole new drive assembly from Magnuson Products. They would probably have you send it to them to install, and rebuild the rest. But they don't have pulleys under 2.8, you would need to buy that from Pulley Boys.

edit: here's a link to a GAGT.com member that ran into a similar problem

http://www.grandamgt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90480&highlight=rebuild

[MMGT1]

What are these 42's you have from? The 36's I like if they will feed it, doubt it though man. How much power you actually make will be your tell, there is such a huge gap in hp between builds. Whatever it takes to have them hit 85% and be able to hit a low enough pulse width to have a steady idle in the end. If the injector you put in is too big, it'll never idle properly down low.

[sleepyalero]

Yeah i know. Its a guessing game till i get the charger on and test. I don't personally have 42's. The GA has 42's on them but im not taking them off for my car. Im buying new. The 42's i forget what car they come from...

But im looking to run around 9psi, and a 2.2 pulley i think.



B, im having Stiegemeier rebuild the charger for me, (talked to them before i found out this big of problem) i am going to call them today and explain the issue, see what they say..

[sleepyalero]

On a side note. Despite all this bullsht, the grand am is back up and running. New owner comes tomorrow to get it out of my garage.


I talked to previous owner about a refund. I didnt get much at all. But its better then nothing. :/

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad58/natesalero/1E6A25F6-47AA-42C8-BC24-74BBD920E3B9_zpsacqnpwag.jpg (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/natesalero/media/1E6A25F6-47AA-42C8-BC24-74BBD920E3B9_zpsacqnpwag.jpg.html)

[sleepyalero]

B, how much was it to make the m90 like the m62? Info would be appreciated.

[AleroB888]

Maybe $400.00-500.00 materials plus fabrication, welding. But you would probably have to notch out the hood brace on the front drivers side.

[sleepyalero]

Did you notch it on yours?

[AleroB888]

Yeah, but since then I did get a little more room. I don't know if a stock hood would clear it. Hard to see on this pic, but it's a notch on the right side of the "A" section of the brace near the top next to the vent opening on the hood (vent hole not as big as it looks) I can't find the other pic right now

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/003.jpg?t=1353223339

[sleepyalero]

I think i see it. But hard to tell.

[AleroB888]

Found it. See, it's not too drastic.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/hood-notch.jpg

[sleepyalero]

Oh so you notch the hood not the core support.