Advice on new engine

[Philbar71]

Well, the time has come. The engine is only slowly getting worse and worse as the miles go on. It now knocks when its warm and when its cold it sounds like a diesel. Long story short I am going to go ahead and get the ball rolling on a new engine. Few questions, for the skimmers, I bolded the important questions.

1. Where should I buy a engine from? I plan on getting a long block (block and heads) and using the accessories and manifolds off of my current engine. Is the best route to go to get a used motor?

2. I will be taking it to a machine shop and having them rebuild the bottom end with Clevette 77 bearings. While they have it, and if the shop will do it, I will have them do the 2.3 oil pump swap. What are other basic things that I should have the machine shop to do to make sure the block and heads are in good condition?

3. Are there any other modifications to the block and/or head that should be done while they have it?

4. Would it be worth it to get aftermarket, forged rods and pistions while its being rebuilt too?

5. IF I do go with forged rods and pistons, would I see any benefit to bumping the compression up to 10:1? Down the road I would like to slap the GM Supercharger and a good tune. I also have a set of secret cams that will go in the new engine as well.

I know NONE of this will be cheap. I would not be surprised if I spend $2k on it before its all done. Thanks in advance, Im sure I'll have more questions too :p

6. Also, what head gasket should I go with? I want to never have to crack this engine open ever again pretty much.

[Hellfire5670]

I was just gonna post something pretty similar but about a 3.4 swap mines just getting worse now and im thinking of I4 in the alero or even getting a 3.4 block clean it up and all and put 3.5 lower and upper ported intakes ect.

and how i see it if your going to get new bearings why not get some now rods and pistons, but someone might tell you something else :P But good luck with your build!

[Philbar71]

I was just gonna post something pretty similar but about a 3.4 swap mines just getting worse now and im thinking of I4 in the alero or even getting a 3.4 block clean it up and all and put 3.5 lower and upper ported intakes ect.

and how i see it if your going to get new bearings why not get some now rods and pistons, but someone might tell you something else :P But good luck with your build!

Well, I had figured that part was kinda obvious, but just wanted to make sure. Im not sure if I want to drop $1k on new rods and pistons. I'll eventually convince my self tho... :awesome:

[Hellfire5670]

Well, I had figured that part was kinda obvious, but just wanted to make sure. Im not sure if I want to drop $1k on new rods and pistons. I'll eventually convince my self tho... :awesome:

im still not sure if i want to get the 3.5 performance swap on the 3.4 from WOTTech for over 2k with shipping and extra parts :p

[billytheman1188]

3.5 performance swap on the 3.4 from WOTTech for over 2k with shipping and extra parts :p

:lol: I paid $600 for a 3500 with 25k on it.

[Hellfire5670]

:lol: I paid $600 for a 3500 with 25k on it.

.... You're lucky.. i wanna look in yards for 3500 parts that i can send in so i dont have to pay any core charge... but i wish i could get one for myself for 600...

[Philbar71]

Anybody else have any suggestions? I found a shop that would do it for me. It would be around $1600 for the labor, does that sound right?

[Philbar71]

Well, im getting closer to figuring it all out...

I plan on getting a used motor of some sort. Most likely I will end up going to pick n pull and grab one myself. Because around here, most places that pull it for you want $750 plus a core... And most do not come with a warranty. The ones that do come with a 30 day warranty are around $800 or more.

I will take the used motor to a machine shop and have it rebuilt before I throw it in. For sure. I am already dead set on doing the 2.3 oil pump swap. The shop I talked to is willing to do it, and for sure, I will be using Clevette 77 main and rod bearings.I will also get some eagle rods.

I am just confused on the pistons, I know I really want to go with forged. Right now Im thinking that I will custom order some weisco 10:1 pistons. I only really plan on going with the GM Supercharger (for simplicity) and a smaller pulley for about 7-8PSI.

How does all of this sound so far? Am I on the right track?

Ive also got a set of secret cams I will throw in it during the rebuild.

[Hellfire5670]

Well, im getting closer to figuring it all out...

I plan on getting a used motor of some sort. Most likely I will end up going to pick n pull and grab one myself. Because around here, most places that pull it for you want $750 plus a core... And most do not come with a warranty. The ones that do come with a 30 day warranty are around $800 or more.

I will take the used motor to a machine shop and have it rebuilt before I throw it in. For sure. I am already dead set on doing the 2.3 oil pump swap. The shop I talked to is willing to do it, and for sure, I will be using Clevette 77 main and rod bearings.I will also get some eagle rods.

I am just confused on the pistons, I know I really want to go with forged. Right now Im thinking that I will custom order some weisco 10:1 pistons. I only really plan on going with the GM Supercharger (for simplicity) and a smaller pulley for about 7-8PSI.

How does all of this sound so far? Am I on the right track?

Ive also got a set of secret cams I will throw in it during the rebuild.

Sounds like a ton of money

[zzyzzx]

I was going to say that of money is no object, get a Jasper rebuilt engine. I have one in my Escort that was put in February 2002 and it's still going strong.

[03glgold]

I was going to say that of money is no object, get a Jasper rebuilt engine. I have one in my Escort that was put in February 2002 and it's still going strong.

I can go for jaspers to because that is what my truck has with 310,000 on the motor, however i think he is going for a custom build

[Redog]

Don't take my word on compression wise, but if you're going to go SC I would stick with the 10.1:1 pistons you were planing on, however WAIT to buy them becuase buying a used engine for the build up is a good idea, you don't know if the motor will have to be bored out or not.

You're plan sounds pretty good to me, however I'm thinking with forged pistions and Eagle rods, you can go a little bit higher than 8 lbs of boost.

I currently have a 3400 block with the rotaing assembly in it, in my basement. I plan on throwing in a bigger cam and the heads I bought from Matt Fuller a few years ago, (they are already on the car with LS1 yellow springs and 3500 valves and maybe 9.7:1 CR right now. Fuller did suggest a .060 MLS gasket (i think) and my CR should be 9.996:1 and that will max out my cam. He has the next cam up from what I bought and his car is very borderline streetable, according to him. I'm going to be using stock pistons. No need to go forged in my case since I'm not planing on going boost :awesome:

Of course, I'm gathering parts right now, except for pistions, since IDK if that block will have to be punched out any. At 160,000 miles, I think it will have to be

[Philbar71]

Sounds like a ton of money

Your right :/ It will prolly be around 3 grand now...

I was going to say that of money is no object, get a Jasper rebuilt engine. I have one in my Escort that was put in February 2002 and it's still going strong.

Sadly money is an object, and I dont plan on maxing out my credit on a Jasper rebuilt engine. So heres to hoping I pull a good junkyard engine :beerchug:

Don't take my word on compression wise, but if you're going to go SC I would stick with the 10.1:1 pistons you were planing on, however WAIT to buy them becuase buying a used engine for the build up is a good idea, you don't know if the motor will have to be bored out or not.

You're plan sounds pretty good to me, however I'm thinking with forged pistions and Eagle rods, you can go a little bit higher than 8 lbs of boost.

I currently have a 3400 block with the rotaing assembly in it, in my basement. I plan on throwing in a bigger cam and the heads I bought from Matt Fuller a few years ago, (they are already on the car with LS1 yellow springs and 3500 valves and maybe 9.7:1 CR right now. Fuller did suggest a .060 MLS gasket (i think) and my CR should be 9.996:1 and that will max out my cam. He has the next cam up from what I bought and his car is very borderline streetable, according to him. I'm going to be using stock pistons. No need to go forged in my case since I'm not planing on going boost :awesome:

Of course, I'm gathering parts right now, except for pistions, since IDK if that block will have to be punched out any. At 160,000 miles, I think it will have to be

Yeah I think I will go with the 10:1 CR. And since Im getting a JY engine, it should be bored out right? How much? Ive heard 0.020 is about the norm?

Any quad 4 owners have anything to chime in? (thats you [ion]C2 :coolio: )

[Redog]

IDK, I know more about the rebuilding process of mainly SBO. I do know a little bit about the process involved in a SBC, and very basic info on a SBF. These old engines are usually 30 and/or 60 over.

I've heard of LA1 motors (and related cousins in the 60* family) going 20, 40 or 60 over on rebuilds, then I find 10 over and 30 over pistons for sale right next to the 20's and 40's.

It's a shot in the dark, but I'm guessing 10 or 20 over is the number. You have a shop going to do the work, talk to them about it. They will know best ;)

[Oldsman]

The 2.3 oil pump swap you can do but not really necessary. It is a good mod to do but unless your looking to squeeze every ounce of power out of the 2.4. But if your plan is the s/c I would spend the money more on a very good polish and port job on the head. That would be better money spent.

Far as other machine work I would have crank cross drilled and even knife edged the throws. Go with the eagle rods and weisco pistons. Have at least the piston skirts coated.

[xXManwhoreXx]

1. Where should I buy a engine from? I plan on getting a long block (block and heads) and using the accessories and manifolds off of my current engine. Is the best route to go to get a used motor?

Craigslist or junkyard if your having the motor going through you can get a bore and start fresh with plus size pistons.

2. I will be taking it to a machine shop and having them rebuild the bottom end with Clevette 77 bearings. While they have it, and if the shop will do it, I will have them do the 2.3 oil pump swap. What are other basic things that I should have the machine shop to do to make sure the block and heads are in good condition?

I would have them also Magnaflux the block and head, soda blast, than iff you are getting new pistons have them deburred and the tops smoothed out, and the rest is obvious things you should have them do.

3. Are there any other modifications to the block and/or head that should be done while they have it?


I'm not positive but I know with my honda I had to notch my block to give proper room for full rod expansion with heat, look into the clearance of the rods end cap with the main girdle and the rod shaft with the cylinder walls at half stroke. You don't want any contact at 6k....

4. Would it be worth it to get aftermarket, forged rods and pistions while its being rebuilt too?

Yes! After market rods and pistons are a great idea especially if your shooting for anything over factory HP.

5. IF I do go with forged rods and pistons, would I see any benefit to bumping the compression up to 10:1? Down the road I would like to slap the GM Supercharger and a good tune. I also have a set of secret cams that will go in the new engine as well.

Yes! High compression is always great for any kind of boost and if you are able to do it now it would make the S/C setup much more powerful than a lower compression setup that was identical other than compression.

6. Also, what head gasket should I go with? I want to never have to crack this engine open ever again pretty much.

I am a strong believe on Cometic headgaskets... literally bullet proof. Unless you are Chris and do Wot passes with a cold engine. :lol:

[Philbar71]

The 2.3 oil pump swap you can do but not really necessary. It is a good mod to do but unless your looking to squeeze every ounce of power out of the 2.4. But if your plan is the s/c I would spend the money more on a very good polish and port job on the head. That would be better money spent.

Far as other machine work I would have crank cross drilled and even knife edged the throws. Go with the eagle rods and weisco pistons. Have at least the piston skirts coated.

Well, the stock oil pump cavitates the oil above 5800 RPM Right? When I like to drive it hard, I usually keep it right at the redline. (which, yes, I know is probably why the bearings are gone in it now) Also, by removing the balance shafts, it allows the engine to spin a little more freely.

Now what do you mean have the crank "knife edged"?


Craigslist or junkyard if your having the motor going through you can get a bore and start fresh with plus size pistons.



I would have them also Magnaflux the block and head, soda blast, than iff you are getting new pistons have them deburred and the tops smoothed out, and the rest is obvious things you should have them do.



I'm not positive but I know with my honda I had to notch my block to give proper room for full rod expansion with heat, look into the clearance of the rods end cap with the main girdle and the rod shaft with the cylinder walls at half stroke. You don't want any contact at 6k....



Yes! After market rods and pistons are a great idea especially if your shooting for anything over factory HP.



Yes! High compression is always great for any kind of boost and if you are able to do it now it would make the S/C setup much more powerful than a lower compression setup that was identical other than compression.



I am a strong believe on Cometic headgaskets... literally bullet proof. Unless you are Chris and do Wot passes with a cold engine. :lol:


I will probably go with a Cometic gasket and copper spray, because, I NEVER want to have to touch the internals again.

Thanks for the help everybody!

[Philbar71]

BUMP, with another question!

Are these guys good to order from???

http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/jnw_index.html

They have a pretty good deal on a Eagle and Wiseco rod combo... Im looking at the

Wiseco # K023M900 pistons and Eagle rods for about $750. The pistons are 10:1 CR so I think that will fit the bill nicely.

The only thing is they dont come with rings... Where would I find rings for them and about how much would they be? Or are rings something the machine shop would have to get based on specs of the block/and or pistons?

[xXManwhoreXx]

Knife edging the crank is litterally what it means, they cut material off of the counterweight portion of the crank to give the edges a sharp point. This cuts through the oil to keep it from building up in pockets and also reduces parisitic drag... Also removing material from the crank leads to less rotating mass meaning faster revs... But you lose them faster as well...


Minimal gains for the price you pay

[Philbar71]

Yeah so I probably wont do the knife edged crank. Ive added up all the parts in a list

2.4 Engine from Pick N Pull $230
ROD, Piston combo(http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/jnw_index.html) $830
Modified 2.4 Oil pan (http://www.miller-performance.com/products.html) $190
2.3L Pump: Advance auto $130
Crank Gear for the pump: Sealed Power - Oil Pump Drive Gear, Part # 223-747 (orilleys) $17
Oil Pick Assembly: 22539133 Advance $42
Windage Tray: 22536409 (GM Parts direct) $12
Bolt To Screen: 11516802 x2 (GM Parts direct) $3
Brace: 24570677 (GM Parts direct) $9
Locator Pins For Pump: 22531530 x2 (GM Parts direct) $3
Baffle Stud: 22542521 x2 (GM Parts direct) $1
Baffle Bolt: 22540299 x2
Nut For Brace: 22535081 x2
Bolt Flange Head: 11516061 x2
Oil Pump Bolts To Block: 14050422 x2

Total ~$1500

Anything Im missing? Suggestions?

And add Clevete 77 main and rod bearings to that list. I forgot them... lol

[xXManwhoreXx]

Arp head studs

[NoSweat83]

Yeah so I probably wont do the knife edged crank. Ive added up all the parts in a list

2.4 Engine from Pick N Pull $230
ROD, Piston combo(http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/jnw_index.html) $830
Modified 2.4 Oil pan (http://www.miller-performance.com/products.html) $190
2.3L Pump: Advance auto $130
Crank Gear for the pump: Sealed Power - Oil Pump Drive Gear, Part # 223-747 (orilleys) $17
Oil Pick Assembly: 22539133 Advance $42
Windage Tray: 22536409 (GM Parts direct) $12
Bolt To Screen: 11516802 x2 (GM Parts direct) $3
Brace: 24570677 (GM Parts direct) $9
Locator Pins For Pump: 22531530 x2 (GM Parts direct) $3
Baffle Stud: 22542521 x2 (GM Parts direct) $1
Baffle Bolt: 22540299 x2
Nut For Brace: 22535081 x2
Bolt Flange Head: 11516061 x2
Oil Pump Bolts To Block: 14050422 x2

Total ~$1500

Anything Im missing? Suggestions?

And add Clevete 77 main and rod bearings to that list. I forgot them... lol

Most of the parts for the oil pump swap are not available through GM Parts Direct anymore. You will have to search to find those pieces or pull them from a yard.

[Philbar71]

Most of the parts for the oil pump swap are not available through GM Parts Direct anymore. You will have to search to find those pieces or pull them from a yard.

I had actually looked to make sure that they were in stock on line, and all of them were. Except for the bolts, but the machine shop can get those lol

[NoSweat83]

So where are you finding most of the parts from GM Parts Direct?

[Philbar71]

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/catalog/frameset.cfm

^ I searched by part number

[NoSweat83]

Got ya. When I searched their site I just put it in the general search bar on the home page with no results other than 2 of the listed parts...

[Oldsman]

well with all what your doing i would do ARP main studs. You want the motor fairly bulletproof then why not.

Other than that i wouldn't do anymore on the bottom end. I would spend the rest on the head. better bang for the buck.

Just FYI, if you are going to running your motor at redline with the GM s/c at 8psi well you better figure out a way to cool the air out of the s/c. Just saying.

[Philbar71]

well with all what your doing i would do ARP main studs. You want the motor fairly bulletproof then why not.

Other than that i wouldn't do anymore on the bottom end. I would spend the rest on the head. better bang for the buck.

Just FYI, if you are going to running your motor at redline with the GM s/c at 8psi well you better figure out a way to cool the air out of the s/c. Just saying.

Yeah, the GM S/C heats up like insane. Later on down the road, with good tuning too, I was planning on meth. Or maybe ditch the S/C and by then I'll be ready to tackle a turbo.

I also forgot to put the Cometec HG and ARP studs yeah... Got to find those actually.

[Oldsman]

talk to Karo for the head studs.

thats at carcustoms.com

[Philbar71]

Sweet.

Another question, should I overbore by .020? or just go with the stock sized pistions and have the block honed and (if need be) punched out to the new (stock bore) piston size? It should save a nice chunk of money at the machine shop if its not really needed.

[NoSweat83]

Sweet.

Another question, should I overbore by .020? or just go with the stock sized pistions and have the block honed and (if need be) punched out to the new (stock bore) piston size? It should save a nice chunk of money at the machine shop if its not really needed.

That depends on how many miles are on the motor and it's condition. Most people just overbore because of use so they can start with a fresh.

[Philbar71]

That depends on how many miles are on the motor and it's condition. Most people just overbore because of use so they can start with a fresh.


I suppose I will go with a stock sized bore, and just get a low mileage motor at the yard. Worst comes to worst hopefully I'll be able to find a used low mileage block somewhere.

[NoSweat83]

I suppose I will go with a stock sized bore, and just get a low mileage motor at the yard. Worst comes to worst hopefully I'll be able to find a used low mileage block somewhere.

If that is your plan make sure to inspect the block before ordering your pistons so you dont have to order two sets...

[NoSweat83]

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/catalog/frameset.cfm

^ I searched by part number

Did you try to check out after adding the items to your cart?

[Philbar71]

Did you try to check out after adding the items to your cart?

Grrrr.... But your right. Thanks for letting me know now, before I got my hopes up lol.

These part numbers were not found in our database: 24570677. The part numbers you seek have either changed to a new part number or no longer available from GM. Please email customerservice@GmPartsDirect.com to verify the correct part numbers needed.

Hell! Its going to be a bitch and a half to find those parts at my local yard too :cry:

So, after some short deliberation, unless someone can find those random parts somewhere else I most likely wont do the 2.3 pump swap.

Windage Tray: 22536409 (GM Parts direct) $12
Bolt To Screen: 11516802 x2 (GM Parts direct) $3
Brace: 24570677 (GM Parts direct) $9
Locator Pins For Pump: 22531530 x2 (GM Parts direct) $3
Baffle Stud: 22542521 x2 (GM Parts direct)

My local junkyard NEVER has any 2.3s. I check on that stuff almost daily too. When they do get the occoasional 2.3, by the time I get to it, they have been picked clean! :(

[NoSweat83]

Hell! Its going to be a bitch and a half to find those parts at my local yard too :cry:

Yup. Might want to think of buying a core 2.3L for those parts if you set on doing the swap. Found one for cheap myself.

[Philbar71]

Yup. Might want to think of buying a core 2.3L for those parts if you set on doing the swap. Found one for cheap myself.

Nothing in the quad4 family is ever cheap around here :/ I figure its not even really worth the time/ effort now. Since people like [ion]C2 have been running on the stock pump with no problems, It should work fine for me too.

Edit: Even car-part fails me!


Car-Part.com could not match your request.
You can submit your request to hundreds of recyclers who may still have your part.

Part Information

Make/Model: 1993 Chevy Beretta
Part: Engine

Ive tried multiple cars too, like a '93 Grand am and such

Looks like ditching the pump swap will save me around $500 too. So maybe that will go to a Port and Polish.

[NoSweat83]

Found tons of them a few days ago through Viking ( ex: $250 ). Just look for a core bottom end and ask plenty of questions if you go that route.

[Philbar71]

Found tons of them a few days ago through Viking ( ex: $250 ). Just look for a core bottom end and ask plenty of questions if you go that route.

link? Whos Viking?

[NoSweat83]

I will look again after work and let ya know.

[NoSweat83]

Viking Auto is a big used auto parts company. Check it out. You should have something similar in your area.