New engine

[Philbar71]

Well, it appears this knock is only getting worse. From researching and posting over at quad4forums, it seems that this is a sign of the main bearings or rod bearings just starting to go.

So my question. When It finnaly goes, is an an engine swap something that can be done in the driveway somewhat easily? Any special tools needed? Could it be a weekend job

[JLw7123]

Well yes you can do it in your driveway. Air tools make it a whole lot easier. do you have an engine hoist to pull the engine. a torque wrench to properly torque everything. something to drain the coolant and oil into. jack and jackstands. Metric and standard long and short sockets. PB blaster. i helped caboose replace his engine in his alero in his driveway.

[TheEdgeofSanity]

this may be a dumb question but could you drop the oil pan and put new main bearings in it if it has not let go yet?

[[ion] C2]

yes, but the surfaces of the rod/crank are probably damaged slightly and may need polishing/machining before a new bearing can be properly installed and spec'd.

you can replace main and rod bearings from the bottom though..

[TheEdgeofSanity]

thanks chris, i wasn't sure if that was possible on the LD9 but I know my uncle did it on his 350 v8 and has put over 100K on it since

[Caboose73]

Ya like JLw7123 said it can be done in a driveway it took us a weekend pulling the old motor out and putting the new one in.Pick up a Haynes manual at advanced or auto zone and go at it make sure to bag and label all the bolts trust me you wont remember where everything goes when you go to put it back together. Also take pictures of anything you think you might have a problem putting back together again and lastly there a tranny mount on the back pass side of the engine block it took us along time to figure out why the tranny and block wouldn't split apart. Feel free to ask me any questions if you get stuck with something

[comanche]

Haynes manual is a good idea.
Can be done in a day. Warranty on the used engine is recommended.
Can be a weekend job but be prepared for your patience to be tested as the first time everything doesn't usually go right.

These 2.4L engines go bad all the time, so if I were you I'd buy something else.... maybe an Alero with a 2.2L - but make sure the timing gets changed at 100k miles or it will have issues too. Much better engine though.

[Philbar71]

C2;607647']yes, but the surfaces of the rod/crank are probably damaged slightly and may need polishing/machining before a new bearing can be properly installed and spec'd.

you can replace main and rod bearings from the bottom though..

Really? Every shop ive talked to does not want to touch it. They say all say it cant be done with the engine in the car and recommend a new engine...

But ive got jacks, ramps, jack stands, air impact gun, and a huge assortment of sockets, as well as stuff to drain the fluids in to. Also have haynes manual and the power of the internet :D

I know 2.4s are known for this, but what can i do to prevent it?

[Redog]

You'll still need the hoist/cherry picker/engine crane and a leverer

Look on your local CL, might come across a deal. If I didn't live in an apartment, I would have bought one off CL already

[[ion] C2]

Really? Every shop ive talked to does not want to touch it. They say all say it cant be done with the engine in the car and recommend a new engine...
Because they can't guarantee it will last, at all if done this way. Shops don't like partially replacing the internals of an engine.

I know 2.4s are known for this, but what can i do to prevent it?
Don't run it low on oil. There's a big debate going on on JBO about what the root cause is of bearing failure. But as long as there's enough oil, it will be fine. My stock engine still has over 250,000 miles on it with no signs of bearing failure.

[Philbar71]

C2;607705']Because they can't guarantee it will last, at all if done this way. Shops don't like partially replacing the internals of an engine.


Don't run it low on oil. There's a big debate going on on JBO about what the root cause is of bearing failure. But as long as there's enough oil, it will be fine. My stock engine still has over 250,000 miles on it with no signs of bearing failure.

But those cant be the stock bearings?

[Caboose73]

i know i got 210k miles on mine completely stock and everything's still running good (knock on wood)

[[ion] C2]

But those cant be the stock bearings?

of course they are...

People switch to the Quad 4 oil pump to increase pressure, and lower the oil pickup, but that doesn't really address what is the true cause of #3 bearing issues.

[Philbar71]

C2;607741']of course they are...

People switch to the Quad 4 oil pump to increase pressure, and lower the oil pickup, but that doesn't really address what is the true cause of #3 bearing issues.

Im talking original bearings.

So whats the cause of the #3 bearing failure then?

anyone have links to the 2.3 oil pump swap?

[[ion] C2]

Im talking original bearings.
Yes, they're original. Why wouldn't they be? You must have some seriously misguided notion that every LD9 has rod bearing failure. The only ones who have had it either had oil breakdown or ran the car with hardly any oil or were otherwise poorly maintained.
So whats the cause of the #3 bearing failure then?
I said it's being debated. There's no way to absolutely know what causes it, EXCEPT THAT RUNNING IT ON LOW OIL WILL MAKE IT HAPPEN. People have done band-aid solutions like the 2.3 oil pump swap that increases the output of the pump.

anyone have links to the 2.3 oil pump swap?
You really should get on www.j-body.org (http://www.j-body.org), as they have ALL the information you could ever want about this engine on there. The majority of people on Aleromod have 3400s, and an even smaller amount of people actually dive into the internals of any of the 4-cylinders; whereas on JBO, everyone has a 4 cylinder.

2.3L Oil Pump Swap (http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=2&i=473337&t=382822&p=1)

[Philbar71]

So long story short it if it only knocks when its cold then the bearings cant be done yet so anybody have a guestimate as to how long they will last? And when they do go what will happen?

[[ion] C2]

Engine will seize, rod might break.

[a.graham52]

try a thinner oil first.

[[ion] C2]

Use 0w-30, synthetic preferably, if it only knocks when cold.

EDIT: Actually, looking at your previous thread, the general consensus was simply piston slap. My engine always made a slap/knock type noise at cold. Pretty typical.

Need a video of your sound.

[Philbar71]

Will do asap. The thing that worries me the most is that i changed the oil again and it was glitter colored with metal shavings. And there was alot of metal shavings on the magnetic drain plug too. More than normal. Ive never seen metal shavings in the oil either...

[a.graham52]

well keep an eye on it. your either going to be fine... or your gonna be putting an engine in it. just change the oil, and inspect for shavings. how long between changes?

[[ion] C2]

Mine also had a lot of gray mush shavings. Who knows.

[Philbar71]

well keep an eye on it. your either going to be fine... or your gonna be putting an engine in it. just change the oil, and inspect for shavings. how long between changes?

on average about 3500 miles. Longest I have ever been was only about 5000 miles. All synthetic.

It worrries that much shavings in a short amount of time. As compared to usually no shavings at all.

Also, when taking the old engine out, is there anything special that must be done when disconnecting the trans from the engine? any kind of special alignment? I was reading through my haynes manual and it was saying something about scribing alignment marks on the driveplate and the torque converter to ensure that they are in balance when re assembling.

[Philbar71]

Video,


http://youtu.be/nbEfLhiAZLU

[turboalero]

mark if u like it doesn't really matter it will line up. dont forget theres one nut between the transmission and oil pan, (youll be pulling all day if u dont get it out) and take off the crank pully helps alot. youll need a puller tool

[Caboose73]

mark if u like it doesn't really matter it will line up. dont forget theres one nut between the transmission and oil pan, (youll be pulling all day if u dont get it out) and take off the crank pully helps alot. youll need a puller tool

x2 on removing the pulley it gives you that extra room to maneuver and pull it out.

[Philbar71]

Thanks for the advice guys! Anybody listened to that vid yet?

[[ion] C2]

damnit, forgot to listen when i was at home last night. i'll try to remember when i get home today

[Philbar71]

Its starting to knock very softly when its warm too...

[[ion] C2]

mine made that noise

it is my opinion that it is normal... but that may change once i get my freshly put together engine running and see whether it also makes the noise.

however i think what we hear is normal. the LD9 is a noisy engine.

[Philbar71]

C2;607769']Engine will seize, rod might break.

C2;607981']mine made that noise

it is my opinion that it is normal... but that may change once i get my freshly put together engine running and see whether it also makes the noise.

however i think what we hear is normal. the LD9 is a noisy engine.

Knocking while warm too? :/ its been eating alot of oil too. Like one quart every 800—1000 miles.

[a.graham52]

motors toast, rebuild or replaced. sounds like fore now you can either run it till it dies or start putting peices together. in all seriousness... do a crompression test and a leak down test on your engine and that should tell you how the internals are doing/

[[ion] C2]

compression test doesn't tell you the bearing condition

apparently my rods and bearings were not spec'd or installed properly when my engine was built the first time. i was shown excessive wear patterns on the rods, crank, and bearings. so maybe mine made that noise (yes even a little bit when it was already warm) because of impending failure.

personally though yours sounds really mild, mine was a bit louder than yours. i think you're fine. mine sounded like that for longer than i can remember otherwise..

[Philbar71]

Thanks for all the help guys!! Well the oil is getting changed this weekend and i'll take a look and seeif theres alot of shavings.

Anybody else have suggestions?

[a.graham52]

i was stating compression test because it gives you a good idea of the engine as a whole. if the compression is crappy and the bearings are shot then the whole engine needs to be considered. if the compression tests good then maybe just bearings can be done and be good to go for a while.

[Philbar71]

i was stating compression test because it gives you a good idea of the engine as a whole. if the compression is crappy and the bearings are shot then the whole engine needs to be considered. if the compression tests good then maybe just bearings can be done and be good to go for a while.

But, bearings cant be done in my driveway lol. And no shop ive talked to wants replace them. I havent talked to a machine shop tho.

[Philbar71]

i was stating compression test because it gives you a good idea of the engine as a whole. if the compression is crappy and the bearings are shot then the whole engine needs to be considered. if the compression tests good then maybe just bearings can be done and be good to go for a while.

But, bearings cant be done in my driveway lol. And no shop ive talked to wants replace them. I havent talked to a machine shop tho.

[comanche]

No shop wants the liability of working on a quad four... I've heard of guys putting new bearings in and having them fail in short order. Yes, it could have been an install problem, but these engines are about as bad as a Dodge 2.7L... or a Saturn CVT...
Napa machine shop will probably do it, and warranty it. They are our best option around here.

[Caboose73]

Ya my engine was making that noise then this happened.
http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu110/rmsawyer73/Engine%20rebuild/1210091905.jpg
http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu110/rmsawyer73/Engine%20rebuild/1212091503.jpg

[Philbar71]

Good lord. What happened there? All that from a bearing failure?

[Caboose73]

Not sure but those were eagle forged rods that ended up going threw the block with only 30-40miles on them. But it sounded exactly like yours does until it did that.

[[ion] C2]

caboose's situation was unique, i wouldn't use it as a base

[Caboose73]

C2;608083']caboose's situation was unique, i wouldn't use it as a base

True im just saying thats the same noise i heard then that happened.

[Philbar71]

Hmm. So its safe to say then that the bearings are pretty much done then?

[[ion] C2]

I don't think so. But you might as well start piecing together parts to build a stronger one to handle boost or somethin.

[turboalero]

Ya my engine was making that noise then this happened.
http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu110/rmsawyer73/Engine%20rebuild/1210091905.jpg
http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu110/rmsawyer73/Engine%20rebuild/1212091503.jpg

is it just me or does eveyones engine blow a hole in the same place

[AZFire316]

weird question, but if you have an auto tranny, have you checked your converter bolts, or flex plate for cracking? it can also have a bottom end engine knocking sound as well. Also to me it doesnt sound like bearing failure to me, not quite loud enough and also rod knock does NOT get quieter when you rev the motor, it gets louder.

[[ion] C2]

also if the crank pulley bolt isn't as tight as it should be it can cause a knocking sound

[Philbar71]

weird question, but if you have an auto tranny, have you checked your converter bolts, or flex plate for cracking? it can also have a bottom end engine knocking sound as well. Also to me it doesnt sound like bearing failure to me, not quite loud enough and also rod knock does NOT get quieter when you rev the motor, it gets louder.

Not sure how i'd go about checking that other than tearing the motor out? Its certainly is an odd noise tho, when i hold it in gear and accelerateing lightly, but not soft, throughout the rpm range i can hear a strange clattering noise that comes and goes depending on the load.

[Caboose73]

Not sure how i'd go about checking that other than tearing the motor out? Its certainly is an odd noise tho, when i hold it in gear and accelerateing lightly, but not soft, throughout the rpm range i can hear a strange clattering noise that comes and goes depending on the load.

You can take off the starter to look at the flex plate to torque converter bolts but to check the flex plate to crank bolts or cracked flex plate you either have to drop the tranny or pull the motor.

Edit:or you might be able to fit a flex camera in there to take a look i don't remember how much clearance there is with the starter removed.