possible battery and/or ignition control module issues

[whiterider00]

for the past week or so, ive noticed slight issues with my car that have suddenly gotten worse. 5days ago, starting my car completely cold (sitting 10hrs), it took about 3 cranks of the starter to start it. seemed like typical dieing battery symptoms. next morning, my wife went to start it, and wouldnt start. i had to jump it, but barely had to turn the key and it fired right up and had no issues for a couple days.

few days later, i had the car idling, but not up to operating temp, and the rpms started fluctuating from normal idle (750) down to under 500, then a couple times to maybe 1300. only lasted for 10 seconds, then no issues on the drive home from work or the next day. today, again a slightly harder than normal startup from cold, but this time i had issues when i started driving. the engine ran smoothly, but no matter how much i pushed on the gas, the rpms didnt go up. lasted for maybe 3-5 seconds, then it ran fine til the next time i drove, and it did pretty much the same thing.

at this point i stopped at autozone to get my battery checked. the date on it says it was manufactured in nov of 2003. and its been in the car for the 6 years ive owned it. i guess that alone should be enough of a reason to replace it. anyway the guy tests it and says its reading almost 0. i dunno if it was volts he was talking about, but he said i should probly replace it soon, and get my alternator checked too.

now i originally thought it was just the battery when it was just starting hard, and not responding to throttle, but on my way home tonight, it got much worse. this time it got bad enough to nearly stall (rpms under 300), and i think it backfired once. this lasted probly 20 seconds or more.

i researched on the forum, and it looks like it could be the ignition module. that seems likely, as the car has over 198k, and afaik it is original. the other thing i thought of, is when i did the cam swap and everything a cpl months ago, i swapped idi covers. i doubt it, but maybe i somehow screwed up the ground or something. im gonna pop off the cover in the morning, and make sure everything is secure.

i guess the question i have is, can a bad battery cause the weird idle and shitty running conditions ive been having, or is it more likely another component.im gonna replace the battery either way, just because its a miracle the one ive got is still functioning. thanks in advance for the help. sorry for the novel.

[sleepyalero]

hmm i think mine when i had pretty much the same issues it ran shitty, 6 year old battery i would replace it, and make sure you get a higher CCA (cold cranking amps) battery. mine was not good enough last winter. replaced it and it fixed my problem. IIRC my volts gauge showed that my battery was losing its charge because of the battery being old and being in cold weather. id replace the battery first then see what happens from there.

[a.graham52]

agreed. fix whats wrong first. when you crank it over it could be enough voltage loss to clear out the ecm and then it will have to relearn idle and stuff agan. iv seen that happen on occasion.

[whiterider00]

Replaced the battery, and so far so good. Im still gonna have the alt checked, just in case since thats original too.

[sleepyalero]

good to hear its workin better now.

[zzyzzx]

Get one:
http://www.amazon.com/Equus-3721-Battery-Charging-Monitor/dp/B000EVWDU0

They have them at some WalMart's too.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410P7ZJHZVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I keep it in the glove compartment. It's saved me one already! Also, on one other occasion it helps me correctly diagnose a bad voltmeter gauge in dash (not in Alero).

[Papa Rad17]

You get an optima battery? I hear those are they way to go.

[whiterider00]

Duralast gold. And i checked out everything, apparently i never swapped over the ground strap that grounds out the ign module to the block. Did that, made sure all connections were tight, and swapped battery this morning. No issues since, but i havnt driven all that much. Hope its fixed.

[Papa Rad17]

Thats what I currently have. Has been a good battery so far. Hopefully that got your problem fixed though. With winter coming problems are never made easier...

[whiterider00]

noooope. car started up fine, drove fine til i got onto my street (lucky i guess). then idle drops to below 500, and starts surging. so bad thast i shut the car off. waited a few seconds and started it again. started right up no issues. i have no idea where to start looking. hasnt thrown a cel yet. i almost wish it would so id have some clue what to look at. any suggestions?

[Papa Rad17]

It sounds similar to what mine was doing when my alternator went out. If you start hearing a whine (exspicaily at high rpms, maybe with the stero on or somthing draw much extra power) then that's a good probability. Other then that I'd have to start guessing... Plugs? Fuel delivery?... I have no idea. When mine out I'd describe it as, the car started running like it was angry at me, stero wouldn't stay on, lights started dimming, running really rough, pulled over and turned it off for a minuet, it started right up. By the time I got home it started acting up again, changed the alt and dropped in a new battery (the old one was down to one cell left) and it's running fine.

[whiterider00]

im gonna have to listen for the alternator whine. probly go get it tested at autozone too. i shouldnt be too surprised that things are starting to go. car has nearly 200k, and in the 60k+ miles ive owned it, ive only done a couple wheel hubs and other random small repairs.

[zzyzzx]

When my alternator went, my dash light came on, and then I plugged in my handy plug-in voltmeter to confirm.

[whiterider00]

im starting to lean more towards a fuel issue now. i would think if it was an ign issue (alt, coil pack, ign control module), there would be a cel thrown when it acts up. there hasnt been at all. theres been a couple times where ive completely run out of gas (in other vehicles, not alero), and it feels just like that. im really hoping its not the fuel pump, that doesnt seem like a fun job. maybe ill run a bit of injector cleaner through and see if that helps anything. ive gotten gas at a couple different places in the past cpl weeks, so maybe its just bad gas. who the hell knows.

[Papa Rad17]

I only go to my local Mach1 (marathon) for gas. The hucksand caseys stations in town have a bad reputation for watered down gas. Someone had a posted no to long ago about a bad fuel filter and was having problems from that or somthing... Don't remember exsactly. It wouldn't be anything connected to the cam swap and other work you did a while back would it?

[whiterider00]

It wouldn't be anything connected to the cam swap and other work you did a while back would it?

i effin hope not. that was well over a month ago, and these issues have only started maybe a week ago. my mechanically inclined friend said it could be any number of sensors (throttle position, camshaft position, crankshaft position).

the fuel filter was replaced somewhere around 4 years ago. i guess that could be an issue, but i would think it would be a somewhat constant thing. i kinda wish it would just throw a code so id at least have some idea where to look.

[03glgold]

My only guess if it is fuel related is that the fuel pump is overheating and then it starts to lock up

[whiterider00]

well driving to and from work yesterday and today, there havent been any real issues. i really hope it was just some random gremlin that worked itself out.

[zzyzzx]

well driving to and from work yesterday and today, there havent been any real issues. i really hope it was just some random gremlin that worked itself out.

Exactly which type of Gremlin:

http://www.lovelyabandon.com/uploads/2011/04/amc_gremlin_74_1.jpg

http://scienceblogs.com/zooillogix/gremlin.jpg

[Papa Rad17]

^all of the above

[whiterider00]

funny...

[Papa Rad17]

have you had any more trouble?

[whiterider00]

shit load today. way into work at a stop light same thing as always happens. idle drops to like 300 then surges up to around normal (750) for at least 5 sec. no codes, no other issues ( backfire etc). i shut the car off and started it right back up. no issues for the rst of the drive.

on my way home just now, happened at least 3 times. pretty sure i heard it backfire at least 2 times too. second time it happened, i just about floored it to see what would happen. nothing for a sec or 2 except the idle surge, then that stopped and speed and rpms jumped up like they should. again, no codes or anything except what im pretty sure was backfiring.

funny enough, after this happened the car seemed to run a lot better. i mean ridiculous throttle response, even sounded smoother at high throttle.

based on the slow, or lack of immediate change in rpms when i floored it, my somewhat more mechanically inclined friend is leaning towards throttle position sensor. he may be on to something because the one thats in the car, on the 2.3l tb is from a 1992 grand am, and definitely looks that old. its only like a $30 part, so i may just swap that out and see if anything changes. if anyone else has other suggestions, id love to hear them. just hoping its not fuel pump related.

[Papa Rad17]

That would be a good place to start instead of just jumping to the file pump. That's for sure.

[whiterider00]

Replaced tps yesterday morning. On the ride into work, there were no issues and i thought it might be fixed. I did notice that my idle went from around 750 to over 1000 when warm. And on 1st start up it idled over 1500rpms and sayed there til i shifted into reverse nearly a min later. Anyway, at night on my way home, i brought the car over from the parking lot, and all seemed fine. Clocked out, went back out to the car, and the loping idle starts again. Similar issues on the drive home. Start it up this morning, and within hslf a min it starts again. So whatever the issue is, its getting much worse and kore frequent. Im gonna toss in a bottle of gumout fuel system cleaner with next tank of gas, then do the fuel filter. Hopefully its just clogged or something. But im pretty sure its the pump thats going bad. If anyones got any other ideas let ke know.

[a.graham52]

never seen a fuel pump cause this kind of issue. however you could be lucky

[whiterider00]

So, tried replacing fuel filter, and i cannot get it loose. Let it soak in pbblaster all night, then tried again. Started rounding off the nut on the fuel line. So i really dont know wtf to do now. Im gonna run out this tank of gas with the gumout in it then try the filter again. It seemed to get kinda worse after i put in the cleaner and gas, so maybe more shit is coming loose and clogging the filter. Who knows. Ill keep updating.

[Redog]

Does the RPMs jump at random while driving?

Mine has been doing that for years. I replaced the ICM and all 3 coils and it got better, but still did it from time to time. I also replaced the plugs, TPS and all that good stuff over the course ofr the past 4 years.

Lately it's been doing it, really bad. Misses so bad, it almost dies right there. The car FINALLY threw a SES light today saying it was the CPS. I ordered one from Rock Auto tonight while I was on break. Cost me a whole $36.06 (including the $3.07 for shipping and the 5% discount coupon I used).

Kinda looking forward to replacing it, and kinda not at the same time :awesome:

[whiterider00]

the loping happens at idle, but while driving it seems like its out of gas (no throttle response, sputtering etc) i have yet to see a ses, which is why i havent even really thought of the crank position sensor. my friend said that might be the issue tho. i just wish there was a definitive way to know before i keep tossing money at this thing.

[a.graham52]

have you tried unplugging sensors and test drivign?

[whiterider00]

I had the car parked and running, and unplugged the idle air cntrl valve, map, and tps, when it started acting up, but nothing changed. So doesnt look like its any of those. Is there any way to test the crank position sensor, to check if thats bad?

[whiterider00]

tried removing the old crank position sensor after work tonight. got the bolt out, and the harness unplugged. the sensor itself will not budge from the block. im guessing whatever sort of gasket/o-ring that seals it is keeping it stuck to the block. hopefully some more wiggling in the morning will get it free. and then hopefully thats actually the issue, and not another waste of time, money, and patience.

[a.graham52]

just unplug the sensor. dont remove it unless your planning on putting a new one in anyways

[whiterider00]

I do plan on replacing it. I dont think the engine would run better, if at all, with it unplugged. Someone correct me if im wrong tho.

[whiterider00]

so ive spent at least a few hours each day since wednesday trying to get this damn sensor out. i thought maybe warming up the engine would kinda loosen things up and it would come out easier. didnt do shit. so i took i it off the jack stands, and took it for a drive to see what would happen. no issues on a 5 min drive. let it idle in the driveway for half an hr, no issues. im stumped now. maybe all the twisting and prying somehow fixed whatever was wrong with the sensor. or maybe the harness was corroded or something, but i doubt it. anyway, it runs fine now, so i really dont know what to do.

while i had the car raised up, i figured id do the lightweight crank pulley that i wanted to do when i did my cam swap. no real issues there, which kinda suprised me. however, i didnt notice any sort of hp gain or quicker revs or anything. o well.

[whiterider00]

so...remember how i said there were no real issues installing the new crank pulley? ya, i was wrong. i somehow managed to rape the collar that the crank seal sits in, therefore it didnt sit right, therefore lots of oil leaked out, onto my serp belt, and was flug throughout the engine bay.

this was sunday that i noticed it. no junk yards around here are open sundays. and according to car-part.com, the closest yard that had one readily available was an hr drive away. so i spent this morning driving out to east butt-fuck massachusetts to get a new timing chain cover. it wasnt til i got home that i noticed there were 3 decent sized dents in the outer edge of it. and my day got better from there. it took me just as long (and much much more frustration) to put on the serp belt than it did to do the 3000 bolts holding on the timing cover.

finally got everything reinstalled, tightened, cleaned and all set. started up the car, and after hearing some odd ticking, realized there was only maybe 1/4 qt of oil. yes, my day has been so shitty and long up to this point, that i actually forgot to put oil in. it ran for 10 sec tops before i shuit it off, and upon startup with oil in it, there were no unusual sounds, and it ran fine for the 5 min i drove it.

now the only really relevent part of this whole story, is that after the car sits for an extended amount of time, (longer than a day or so) the shitty idle/sputtering issue seems to dissapear for the first 5min or so of driving (usually test drive to see if ive fucked up anything else). i am still unable to get the crank position sensor any looser than i have before, and theres still no codes or any other symptoms.

does this point to something specific like the crank sensor, or is it purely coincidental? i would really love to get this figured out sometime soon while its still warm out. any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

hope you enjoyed the story. lol

[whiterider00]

ok, so ive been attempting to get my crank sensor out for quite a while now, while still driving tht car to and from work. saturday morning tho, it took me nearly 10 minutes to go about 2 miles, and the car stalled on its own twice, and i had to shut it off cuz of the idle at least 2 times.

anyway, i tried removing the sensor again this morning. first i broke off a small piece of the mounting bracket part. i actually thought this was good, cuz now i had a way to try and get some sort of lubricant down to the o-ring. sprayed on some pb blaster, and let it sit for a bit. tried again, and this time, the whole mounting piece broke off. the only thing that sticks out of the block now is the 2 metal prongs that the wiring harness went to.

i can definitely tell its the o-ring thats siezed up inside the hole, so ive been thinking of what i could spray in there to kinda eat the rubber, and make it easier to pull out by using pliers and pulling on the metal prongs. if i cant get this thing out, i really dont know what to do, cuz any garage wont be able to do anything that i havent already tried.

[a.graham52]

i can definitely tell its the o-ring thats siezed up inside the hole, so ive been thinking of what i could spray in there to kinda eat the rubber, and make it easier to pull out by using pliers and pulling on the metal prongs. if i cant get this thing out, i really dont know what to do, cuz any garage wont be able to do anything that i havent already tried.

when taking it to a garage... its not about what you have or havnt tried... its about how much luck they guy working on it has...

something you could try is to take a small punch and a hammar and try to fold the sensor in on itself BUT dont push the sensor in anyfurther. this should help you get some lube down onto the o ring and then just try to work it work it out with plyers.

i really hope this sensor fixes it otherwise you just beat all around the bush/through the bush and over the bush for nothing.

[whiterider00]

Ya, if its not this sensor, the cars gonna b up for sale pretty cheap. I already plan on getting something else either way.

[Papa Rad17]

Thats sad, after all the work you put into it with the new cams and kit and everything... Who knows, when you put it up I might buy it to have another alero to drive around! (half serious)

[whiterider00]

ya, id love to keep it, and if i fix the issue and it runs good, then i might. but the though of $2500ish towards a much newer, much nicer car (legacy gt or acura tsx) sounds pretty nice too. its been almost 6 years, and its got nearly 200k miles on it, so i definitely got my money worth.

im gonna take off the intake manifold, and maybe thatll gove me some more room to work. hopefully i can get it done before it gets too cold.

[whiterider00]

gave it another shot trying to pull the sensor out. more lube, plus vice-grips on the prongs, plus all my strength equal jack shit. there is no way short of drilling it out that the remainder of this sensor is coming out. im gonna put up a for sale thread for the car as is. if someone locally wants to tow it and try to fix it themself, it might be worth it.

[a.graham52]

get a pick with a 90 degree end and a small hammar ot something to tap the pic in. put the pick in the small gap wehre the sensor ends and the cover beginns. tap the pick in with a hammar. take it out and do a nother spot. what you will be doing is pry the end of the sensor away from the engine. i have to do the same thing when wheel speed sensor brake on 4x4 chevys.