Operation Overkill

[AleroB888]

........continues.
Experimenting with new MAF placement, directly connected to throttle body:

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/001-17.jpg?t=1317878356

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/003-11.jpg?t=1317878214

:awesome:

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/TB1.jpg?t=1317878430

[guiguilandry]

personally i don't think that's it's a good idea just for thet fact that in a maf sensor there should be the less turbulence possible, because it's a little thermistance in a round tube calibrated with the pcm...

that's why GM put a screen before the maf, to direct the airflow

I think that it will give you some funky reading but only when you go WOT or fully closed...

and in the event of a backfire you could damage it...


But with that said, the maf is located in the throttle on my 78mm TB on my L67

[AleroB888]

personally i don't think that's it's a good idea just for thet fact that in a maf sensor there should be the less turbulence possible, because it's a little thermistance in a round tube calibrated with the pcm...

that's why GM put a screen before the maf, to direct the airflow

I think that it will give you some funky reading but only when you go WOT or fully closed...

and in the event of a backfire you could damage it...

But with that said, the maf is located in the throttle on my 78mm TB on my L67

This is something that is so complex, you don't know how it will work until you try it out. I did one short test drive and was pretty impressed, but it may take many days for problems to show up.

The throttle body and especially the MAF are so far in distance from the intake valves that response always suffers a bit. I don't see how a backfire could affect them thru the SC and intercooler.

I did have problems with a de-screened ported MAF, it had no drivability at all -- constantly stalled. so I went back to the stock LS1.

The concern for it right now is more vibration and how to do the filter.

[guiguilandry]

sorry i didn't tought about the intercooler.
That's what I need because i got some very high heat in my l67... 16 psi with no intercooler is pushing the limit a little and I'm killing the power by running an afr of 10:1 to be safe

[MMGT1]

Lookin good B! I am wondering though, having it that close to the blade would bias the flow readings. I know you are familiar with this guy, but Greg Banish told me to have a min of around 9" between the MAF and the TB. Gives the air room to smooth the flow before the body. Not because of distance from valves, but distance from MAF to body. Being that close together I can see how turbulance can occur in that short of a run between the two... just a thought though dude. On the other hand, if it works, then it works! LOL

[MMGT1]

Just had another idea though man. Dont know if I'm taking out my ass here but here it goes; Remove the honeycomb from your MAF. Then right before the MAF install a double size one. Instread if the 1" that is in there now, install a 2" even a 3". I bet that would be enough to keep the air flow straight all the way through the MAF to the Body?? Again, just thinking out loud dude...
Hey, as well, if your intrested in going to the card style MAF hit me up. I got the combo here right now that Im putting in mine. I can give you the part #'s if your looking to get the set up in yours, wink, wink...

[AleroB888]

Lookin good B! I am wondering though, having it that close to the blade would bias the flow readings. I know you are familiar with this guy, but Greg Banish told me to have a min of around 9" between the MAF and the TB. Gives the air room to smooth the flow before the body. Not because of distance from valves, but distance from MAF to body. Being that close together I can see how turbulance can occur in that short of a run between the two... just a thought though dude. On the other hand, if it works, then it works! LOL

Yeah, could use a flow bench right about now ................:)
It's difficult to interpret the results, since I'm altering the system that measures the airflow. I got a higher peak raw frequency reading, and less pressure drop on one test with the direct connection so far, but I need to retest it. The air at the supercharger inlet is turbulent to begin with, the vacuum gauge fluctuates at various lower RPMs. There could also be tuning effects depending on the blower RPM vs pipe length, who knows? But the only other choice is a curved tube between the throttle body and MAF, which also must be optimized. The best one I used so far is 45* bend, 3 inch diameter, flared at both ends. I'll try to post more later, short of time right now.:)

[MMGT1]

Any progress B? How's the set up working out bud?

[unchained01]

i have no doubt he will get it fine tuned eventually !! post up when u get a chance

[AleroB888]

Any progress B? How's the set up working out bud?

i have no doubt he will get it fine tuned eventually !! post up when u get a chance

Thanks for the support, I appreciate it!

I have good news and bad news on these modifications:

The direct connection with the large TB and MAF appears to be a success. I measured about 3 inHg vacuum less pressure drop at the supercharger inlet, compared to a 65 mm TB ( ported stock) with a 3 inch curved transition tube from the MAF. That translates into about 1.5 psi peak at WOT, similar to going to a (0.1 in) smaller SC pulley. Keep in mind I have a 2.0 inch SC pulley installed, and before the mod was reading about 11 psi at the upper intake.

The MAF frequency and lb/min. were also an order of magnitude higher across the board. I did several tests on the street, and logged the changes in fueling seen by the PCM -- Injector Duty Cycles (IDC) and Injector Pulse Width (IPW) increased, and narrowband O2 readings stayed in a good range, no Knock Retard was generated by the PCM. I was now maxing out the 36 lb injectors at 12.0 Target AFR, and reset it to 12.5.

I went down to the track Saturday the 15th, (chomping at the bit, as you can imagine) On the first run, I did a good solid burnout, but the starter motioned me to halt and wait, I hit the brakes and waited a while, but then backed up and did another aggressive burnout (which ain't the best thing for a tranny :) ). I had a pretty good launch, no wheel hop, but out of first gear it hit the rev limiter, no WOT shift to 2nd gear . :lol: . The scanner threw a TPS code, and for a while I had some hope, so I put in a new TPS. Another run, same result, can't go higher than 1800 rpm in 3nd gear. So the search for a good local trans shop begins, and the necessary PITA demodding to facilitate a major repair. ( I can hear it now, "We ain't gonna guarantee this." :lol: )
(edit: still clinging to hope, a few more things to check out)

The other "good news" is this is an easy mod to try with the Magnacharger kit, or maybe extreme N/A builds, and might work just as well with a 65 mm TB and a stock MAF, depending on how they interface and what boost level you run. Also note, as run at the track, the air filter is bypassed, and just a short flared piece installed at the MAF inlet. You only need a vacuum gauge with an expanded scale to test the need for an upgrade.

[AleroB888]

Before we swing into sub-operation "Underkill", a final pic: :)


http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/FALL-1.jpg?t=1319357545

[a.graham52]

how do you know its trans issue and not something else?

[AleroB888]

how do you know its trans issue and not something else?

Could just need more boost, maybe 13 psi is not enough. Might need a bigger blower.

[MMGT1]

Hey B, you get this fixed up yet?

[AleroB888]

Hey B, you get this fixed up yet?

No, it's at a transmission shop now, still in diagnostic stage. I could get it to run full tilt up to 72 mph if I left the lever in 2nd. If it could reach 85 or so, I'd probably have left it alone and just run 1/8 miles. ;)

And just when I had a little cash flow, too. :(

[xXManwhoreXx]

Sucks man hope they figure it out

[AleroB888]

Hey B, you get this fixed up yet?

Sucks man hope they figure it out

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/sprag-2-1.jpg?t=1321570996

Something about a second gear sprag blew up on it, I dunno about these things. He's gonna try to machine a piece from a turbo 400, if that don't work, go with a new stock piece. Raybestos Blue plates are in, and Alto steels. strengthen the TC. and then I'll need a good size jar of vaseline, from the sound of it :lol:

[Nate's Alero]

Nice Clutch Pack explosion, you done well. Killing a 4T45E isn't that hard though. Damn good when you got Turbo 400 parts hanging in there.

[MMGT1]

Ba-da Bing, ba-da "BOOM"!! You gotta' keep a parts list for us when your done man. I'd like to keep the 45E as well. If yours works out I'd love to get my hands on the list

[kwhauck]

Nice Clutch Pack explosion, you done well. Killing a 4T45E isn't that hard though. Damn good when you got Turbo 400 parts hanging in there.

Its thinking like this that gives the 45 a bad rep. They can hold a lot of power, people underrate them.

[MMGT1]

Its thinking like this that gives the 45 a bad rep. They can hold a lot of power, people underrate them.

Just want to add some of my own experience here... and I agree 100% bud! If anyone that is running a 4t40 or 45e and you have access to HP Tuners or DHP you will quickly see that the way GM set up the transmission tune is for a Sunday grocery getter. When they built it, their #1 goal was to try and find happy medium between ride comfort and fuel economy, also why they set factory pressure at 30psi on the tires, when we should run 34-36 minim! Anyway.... back to the trans.... the trans is set up to make the shift as smooth as possible for the end user. Great of your a customer that just uses the car for normal, run of the mill, go to work, get some food, take the family visiting, and so on. BUT, for guys like us this will not do! With the shifts set as soft as they are we are doing major damage to clutch plates and overheating the entire unit. Do this too many times and ka-blewy, you are getting towed.
Increase shift pressure, shorten shift times and raise shift points. Also raise the Torque Converter lock up and you now have a trans that will take just about anything a stage 2-3 NA build will throw at it, and will most likely stand up to a good amount of boost if set up right as well. I say most likely because I will be testing this theory as soon as I can when I add 14psi to a Milzy Stage 2 build that runs 14.1 as of now.
I should add too guys, you cannot set this transmission up properly with the factory trans mount, the one at the very front of your car. There is simply too much play in it, even brand new. I have had many guys over the years argue that one, but trust me guys, I know I'm right on this one. I killed three trans mounts in one summer, and when I say killed I mean killed! Tore the ever living' crap out of them! Put in Milzy's trans mount 5 years ago and have never looked back. With the mount I was able to increase shift pressures by almost 50%!! My trans stays nice and cool no matter how much I beat on it, or how many runs I make. To give you an idea here, I had days at the track where I ran up wards of 30 times in just one day, and there have been dozens...ahhhh yea...
Sorry for the long post guys, but the 4T45E in my opinion is a great trans, GM just had to go a little soft on their tune. Oh, and so you know, when I did my GM Motive Power Autobody Repair and Collision ticket, the fellow that taught me GM electrical for two weeks was the guy that actually designed the trans...lol And a good portion of my tuning training and ideas come from Greg Banish, the guy that sets up the PCM's for General Motors and has literally "written the book" on tuning. He truly is one of the best in the world. For almost two years I was in contact with him at least twice a week when i went through this, and he backs up my methodology 100%!

[AleroB888]

I like my '03 Alero tranny a lot better than the '99. Not sure how it will do under boost. I did have the front mount on the '99 disintegrate, too. The replacement tranny we put in the '99 two years ago did ok, but never seemed to shift as firm as the original one. The tricks I was using on the original tranny did not work on the replacement, but then again I was at a higher power level by then.

I have to agree that given the amount of intentional abuse on these units, they did quite well.

[AleroB888]

We may have a chance to test these theories. This is turning into one nasty ride (+blue plate clutches and new TC)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/002-13.jpg?t=1349675727

[happyisthealero]

I wonder if your experiencing any "loss" of air flowing in the intake with that snaky setup you got there?

[sleepyalero]

I wonder if your experiencing any "loss" of air flowing in the intake with that snaky setup you got there?

i doubt it, an intake can have as many curves as it needs and its still gonna bring in the same amount of air, as long as its not leaking anywhere.

[a.graham52]

i doubt it, an intake can have as many curves as it needs and its still gonna bring in the same amount of air, as long as its not leaking anywhere.

Its easier to suck through a shorter straw then a long one. Easier to suck on 2 straws at once compared to 1

[sleepyalero]

yeah true. lol.

[guiguilandry]

yeah you should get your intake as straight as possible... lol I 've put the battery in the trunk in all of my s/c'ed car, the LD9, The ECO and the L67...and... well my buttdyno tell me it does a difference

[AleroB888]

.......... Anyway.... back to the trans.... the trans is set up to make the shift as smooth as possible for the end user. Great of your a customer that just uses the car for normal, run of the mill, go to work, get some food, take the family visiting, and so on. BUT, for guys like us this will not do! With the shifts set as soft as they are we are doing major damage to clutch plates and overheating the entire unit. Do this too many times and ka-blewy, you are getting towed.
Increase shift pressure, shorten shift times and raise shift points. Also raise the Torque Converter lock up and you now have a trans that will take just about anything a stage 2-3 NA build will throw at it, and will most likely stand up to a good amount of boost if set up right as well. I say most likely because I will be testing this theory as soon as I can when I add 14psi to a Milzy Stage 2 build that runs 14.1 as of now.
I should add too guys, you cannot set this transmission up properly with the factory trans mount, the one at the very front of your car. ........!

Hey, thanks for the tranny tune! Can't I just chain the engine to the frame? lol

I'm at square 1 with a new blower and trans rebuild, motor is on the way out, though :( Going to mod one step at a time to see the effect of each. Not as much power as the previous build yet, but it's getting to be fun to drive again.

Stock MAF, bored out TB ( to 65mm), stock UIM, (no EGR), stock FPR, 3 inch exhaust, supposed to be a built tranny, with MMGT1 tune. 2nd burnout in the vid, see slight shadow on the dash from tire cloud ;)

Here's a look and listen, pay no attention to old guy driving, he's crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PsQ0Gp9vQw

[AleroB888]

got to 12 psi, brought groceries home safely

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/68mmtb-1.jpg?t=1351814361

[xXManwhoreXx]

Nice!!!

[MMGT1]

I like the sound of it... e-mail me a log and the tune you have on it man, I'd like to have a look!!

[unchained01]

What is your cable bracket bolted too ?

[AleroB888]

What is your cable bracket bolted too ?

Just the one bolt on the TB right now, the bracket wraps around it. I don't know how it will be positioned later, so don't want to tap holes yet. Something changes on it every other day lol

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/UIM-tube-EB.jpg?t=1352710226

[billytheman1188]

Nice video!! Love that car....that engine bay is so damn clean...whole car is prob spotless. Gotta get that thing to ASS!

[AleroB888]

Nice video!! Love that car....that engine bay is so damn clean...whole car is prob spotless. Gotta get that thing to ASS!

Thanks, but it's not too good in person, I have to mess with the light and camera angles. The red 2003 is decent, though.

[MMGT1]

How's the car doing there bud? Manage to play with the trans settings a little more yet?

[AleroB888]

How's the car doing there bud? Manage to play with the trans settings a little more yet?

Yeah, did you get the last emails on the 13th? It's doing better than that now timing-wise, could use a better 1-2 shift, see also thread on last Test & Tune. Trying to intercool it now, hoping for another 5% HP/Torque under the curve. It will be a challenge though

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/UIM-tube-EB.jpg?t=1352710226

[AleroB888]

Boost vs. RPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOMs7UVv_N0

[mfuller]

Damn, that blower is loud. No sneaking up on anyone in the white car.

[MMGT1]

What is your scaner reporting as far as "delivered trans torque" right at the commanded shift point between 1 and 2 bud?

[billytheman1188]

Boost vs. RPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOMs7UVv_N0


sex :cool:

[AleroB888]

Damn, that blower is loud. No sneaking up on anyone in the white car.

There's a good reason for that. :lol: Air filter is under the plastic shield

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/Hoodvent-1_zps3e52fc36.jpg?t=1361060832

[AleroB888]

What is your scaner reporting as far as "delivered trans torque" right at the commanded shift point between 1 and 2 bud?

It drops to 295 between shifts. But when there is a lot of wheelspin, the mph drops and the PCM downshifts it back from 2nd to 1st. At least I think that's what is happening. Doesn't do it with slicks at the track. Might as well post this here too (note: this is NOT a scan of the video, but of a faster rolling start):

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/screenshot-28-2-12-13_zps8583f54a.jpg?t=1360720544

[AleroB888]

Boost vs. RPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOMs7UVv_N0

sex :cool:

Yeah, can't sell any kits, that would be prostitution :p

[MMGT1]

It drops to 295 between shifts. But when there is a lot of wheelspin, the mph drops and the PCM downshifts it back from 2nd to 1st. At least I think that's what is happening. Doesn't do it with slicks at the track. Might as well post this here too (note: this is NOT a scan of the video, but of a faster rolling start):

I think you are spot on. As far as the shift goes, in your pressure table.... from 250Tq to the top of your table add 5% to it and try it again. The trans is built now, take advantage of it and give the shift some snap. Set desired time to .1 if you havent already

2nd, get bigger injectors bud. What size are you running right now?

3rd, what * Thermostat you running?

[AleroB888]

It drops to 295 between shifts. But when there is a lot of wheelspin, the mph drops and the PCM downshifts it back from 2nd to 1st. At least I think that's what is happening. Doesn't do it with slicks at the track. Might as well post this here too (note: this is NOT a scan of the video, but of a faster rolling start):

I think you are spot on. As far as the shift goes, in your pressure table.... from 250Tq to the top of your table add 5% to it and try it again. The trans is built now, take advantage of it and give the shift some snap. Set desired time to .1 if you havent already

2nd, get bigger injectors bud. What size are you running right now?

3rd, what * Thermostat you running?

I think fuel and cooling are ok, but I don't understand the way those tranny tables are set up, don't see how it could be tweeked further -- max base pressure can't be set higher than 96. Shift times are at 0.1

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/trans-files-1_zpsf2076ee7.jpg?t=1361563755

[MMGT1]

240-260 is still shifting at 70-80% there. Add 5 to the 240 and 260 rows. With wheel spin I bet you hit that area. Are you experiencing slip? If so, you can subrtact 5 from the force motor table from 132* to 240*, in rows 60-90%. Subtract another 5 in those locations if it still fells like its not grabing. You install a shift kit when you built it? If not, pretty sure one can be installed with a pan drop.
Over 80% in our fueling systems is static. The injector cannot open and close fast enough to feed it properly man. One step up is all you need, nothing crazy. Too big is a p.i.t.a to get any kind of idle out of.

[AleroB888]

240-260 is still shifting at 70-80% there. Add 5 to the 240 and 260 rows. With wheel spin I bet you hit that area. Are you experiencing slip? If so, you can subrtact 5 from the force motor table from 132* to 240*, in rows 60-90%. Subtract another 5 in those locations if it still fells like its not grabing.

Thanks, might as well tell me the maximum safe limit I can go on the Force Motor table, lol ...... No shift kit, but I used to use a switch that ungrounded one of the solenoids and defaulted it into full line presure, just for the track. I don't know how that affected the tables, but every shift was *WHAM*. I know it means 1-2 tenths in the 1/4 mile.

I don't mind having to reflash it for on and off the track, for right now.


Over 80% in our fueling systems is static. The injector cannot open and close fast enough to feed it properly man. One step up is all you need, nothing crazy. Too big is a p.i.t.a to get any kind of idle out of.

It only goes over 80% for 1 second at the top of each gear, the rest of the run it averages 60-70%. But I sure don't want my plugs to be foulin' right now :p

[MMGT1]

I would not take more than 15-20 out of any area in the force table. Really, the only time we should really mess with that table is if you are dealing with slip. If you take 10 out, imo, and don't get the grab you want, I'd install a shift kit

You are using a WB to tune WOT? As long as the WB reads your fuel is good, then fook it bro, keep it as is for injectors!

[AleroB888]

Swapped in the LS1 MAF and its calibration table, upgraded to larger filter tubing. First tests felt a little stronger on the street, could have sworn it ran smoother and shifted better, but time will tell.
According to the scans, the MAF reading of lb/min maximum increased as expected, but what was not expected is it ran a bit richer at WOT. IDC was up a couple per cent to 93, but the recorded MAF frequency was lower due to the different calibration.
If I get another chance at dry 60 degree temps, I'll take it to the track again. Intercooling progress is still behind schedule.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/LS1maf-1_zpsd88a9521.jpg

[happyisthealero]

Is the engine P&P B?

[AleroB888]

Is the engine P&P B?

no


Vanishing point, hot lapped that puppy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCaY2NvAKqg&feature=youtu.be

More hilarity, in the heat of the summer the Saab plastic coupler (SC outlet) "melted" after taking that vid, almost got stranded. heh

So now working on a new coupler/casting

and hooked this up, but under-engineered at least one component.... there's a 35psi pump and pressure switch under the MAF sensor somewhere...

the pressure switch failed, stuck closed "ON" after a WOT pass on the highway, which dumped in 50/50 alc/H2O at a rate of 8 ounces/minute.

But did we panic? Oh, no, this type of stuff is expected ;)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/wat-inj-2_zps0f91dc1f.jpg

(simul-posted on 60DegV6)

[MMGT1]

I still think its beyond awesome you got that charger in there bro, God Dam I like your ride dude

[AleroB888]

I still think its beyond awesome you got that charger in there bro, God Dam I like your ride dude

Aww man, ya jinxed it , lol

Took it to da track last Sat. [without alcohol injection], and as I told a friend--

"....Well, the test n' tune did not go so well, there was a huge crowd
because of a drifting event they also had going on, so long waits in
line to run. But the car ran much slower than it should have. I did all
the things I needed to to get it prepped, but it no-go-fast, lol....

So now I'm trying to analyze the scans, but the most obvious ongoing
problem has been severe misfires on cylinder #1. And it ran worse since
I had an alcohol injection malfunction during a road test last month.
It looks like a new engine is the best way to go. Been putting that off
for a long time. At least I got to test it and find out there was a big
problem, and still make it back home :)....."

ran 2 14.5's and barely broke 90 mph, I'm officially arrived at the wtf point.

Got one(some) major gremlin(s) going on in here :(

[MMGT1]

Did you log your 1/4 B? If you did post your tune and run for me. If you didn't log I'd still like to see the tune that you ran at the track...
First suggestion, before even seeing the tune, put a fuel pressure gauge on it and tape it to your windscreen. Focus your camera on the gauge and take it out and hammer it. I would like to see what your fuel pressure is doing before anything else if at all possible bro

[AleroB888]

Did you log your 1/4 B? If you did post your tune and run for me. If you didn't log I'd still like to see the tune that you ran at the track...
First suggestion, before even seeing the tune, put a fuel pressure gauge on it and tape it to your windscreen. Focus your camera on the gauge and take it out and hammer it. I would like to see what your fuel pressure is doing before anything else if at all possible bro

here's a link to one of the 1/4 runs--

E.T about 14.5, mph around 90 (23 inch tires)
(LS1 MAF w/ " '97 Corvette Calib, stock Alero sensor element" :

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?17514-Problem-with-stock-3400-VCM&p=174899#post174899

I tested the fuel pressure at key-on, engine off, before going to track, it was about 55 psi. I have not checked at WOT in a long time. However, the symptoms are getting worse every time I drive it at WOT, I gotta be careful here, lol

One symptom over the last months has been running higher and higher narrowband O2 voltages, now it's getting to the point of maxing out the readings.

I had also replaced the O2 sensor with a GM version, changed the offsets back to stock. Put the stock MAF back in, same result on street.

So we have lost of measured boost, big loss of power, and yet the fuel consumption is way higher than normal, but no misfires at WOT.

Has a lot of misfires at low RPM, mostly on cylinder #1, where I suspect a bent valve. It's had that going on for over two years, but it's much worse now......

This is acting like the air charge is somehow disappearing before it gets to the fuel injectors, or something in the system is absorbing the power or dragging it down. Weird as hell...

[MMGT1]

Your rich. The MAF table, remove 5% from the entire cruise mode. Have you VE tuned it B? Take 3% from your entire VE table in cruise regions as well for now.
Have you tested your coils with an ohms tester? Should read between 5-7Kohms. Look to see if one is out of whack bro

**Shit B, while your there test the wires too... 600ohms/ft is what you want, so measure their length, top of boot to where it enters elbow at coil and figure out your ohms/ft. Don't want a stupid wire have you chasing your tail

[MMGT1]

You will probably have a good laugh at me, but what is that red under your coils? You got some kind of A/M ICM going on there? What kind of coils you running?

With what's reported through the NB I would look to make sure calibration of the WB is correct first. Did you check to make sure your WB reads the same as HP Tuners as well?

I would also get rid of the add vs RPM table and use the MAF only to fuel it. Change the entire PE table to 12.5 if that's what you are aiming for

[AleroB888]

I got stock coils but an MSD ignition. The red parts are adapters to patch the DIS-4 into the system, and it's mounted in front of the center console.

I've never had a fueling problem with this basic tune before, though I agree it would not hurt to fine tune the MAF and VE tables. In normal driving, you wouldn't think there is any big problem, just at WOT.

But there are no misfires happening at WOT either, so I don't see where it could be the ignition. The last time I lost power and boost like this, it was the LIM gasket, but the other symptoms were different then.

Something mechanically wrong with the engine is what I want to believe, since that would be better than a bad tranny or SC, lol.

Right now, a small power steering leak turned into a bigger one and drained the fluid out. So now I have to fix that first, sheesh

Tell me about this Royal Purple synthetic power steering fluid..... I want to put that in there......because Overkill! haha :awesome:

yay or nay? Will it hurt to have it mix with the fluid already in there?

[AleroB888]

.......

Something mechanically wrong with the engine is what I want to believe, since that would be better than a bad tranny or SC, lol.

Right now, a small power steering leak turned into a bigger one and drained the fluid out. So now I have to fix that first, sheesh

Tell me about this Royal Purple synthetic power steering fluid..... I want to put that in there......because Overkill! haha :awesome:

yay or nay? Will it hurt to have it mix with the fluid already in there?

So can't get a new PS pump, only reman units.... can't get the variable assist solenoid at all, which is where the big leaking problem was...so got an A1 Cardone pump, new plastic pulley. Dug up some "close enough" O-rings, there were 3 needed for the solenoid section, one for the reservoir. And put synthetic fluid in there as well. The pulley wound up being misaligned for some reason, too far inward by about 1/32 inch. But race day was coming up, needed some road tests. Oh, and the gremlins, we seem to have caught one of 'em. No matter how careful you are to recheck everything, there's always one that sneaks in when you're not looking and loosens a clamp. That one turned an ordinary coupler into a pretty good BOV. Road tests revealed the boost was back, almost peaking at 15 psi, and no fluid leaks. But, there was a chirping noise creeping in from somewhere by the end of the day. (had the gremlin relocated ?)

Saturday morning, loaded car for the track, started it up and woah, big time chirping, squeeling from the PS pump. Quieted down a lot when warmed up, but still there at 2k + rpm.

So got to the track, changed tires, cooled engine, ready to race, and.... raindrops started, announcer calls off the event...Which was good in a way, because about that time somebody told me they were only going to run 1/8 miles and that would have really set me off. Always had been 1/4 tests before along with 1/8 trials.

Next Saturday is the final Test/Tune/Fun racing meet, so will try to get some tuning in the next couple days.... And oh yeah, change that freaking PS pump again, what'sup with that? ....

gremlins ;)

[MMGT1]

Holy hell dude.... you must be in for one hell of a run 'cuz I think you've paid your dues. BOV... really man, all this over a bloody clamp ahahhahaa

[WhiteV6]

My 3.4 DOHC has that chirp issue. New belt, works great for a week or less. Its an alignment issue I think, because its a 96 alt on a 93 engine but I dunno. It goes away completely at all RPM once warmed up. Just throwing that out there.

[MMGT1]

Ben on my build, the 3400, would chirp and do same as yours. Moved to a gatorback belt and all issues gone for last three years that I had it. Also, I never found a tensioner that could hold anything other than an original GM one

[MilzyZ34]

Ben on my build, the 3400, would chirp and do same as yours. Moved to a gatorback belt and all issues gone for last three years that I had it. Also, I never found a tensioner that could hold anything other than an original GM one

Agreed on that one, I never use anything but GM tensioners, can't stand aftermarket ones, plus the move the ratchet hole which makes it even harder to access. If I ever have to take one of those off, I just put a GM one back on so I don't have to mess with it.

[MilzyZ34]

My 3.4 DOHC has that chirp issue. New belt, works great for a week or less. Its an alignment issue I think, because its a 96 alt on a 93 engine but I dunno. It goes away completely at all RPM once warmed up. Just throwing that out there.

di-electric grease makes a good belt lube. generously cover about 4" on both sides of the belt, and that usually fixes most belt noises.

[sleepyalero]

My 3.4 DOHC has that chirp issue. New belt, works great for a week or less. Its an alignment issue I think, because its a 96 alt on a 93 engine but I dunno. It goes away completely at all RPM once warmed up. Just throwing that out there.

mine did the same thing after i deleted ac completely. and ran a smaller belt with a beretta idler pulley. few weeks was chirp free, then cold start would chirp until engine was warm. then few weeks after that, would chirp at all rpms. Milzy told me to try di electric grease (as he suggested to you above) do it. i did mine about 4-5 days ago and not a chirp since.

[AleroB888]

This chirping was from the PS pump, I put another one in last night. Ran it today for about 10 miles. Just some whining noise which should disappear.

After battery disconnected overnight, ran it yesterday for about 15 minutes (IFR=34, LS1 MAF, Histo shows LTFT avg.) :

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/scan-11-19-13_zpsa025c817.jpg

all that good cold air going to waste :(

Can't believe I was actually on the phone a couple weeks ago talking to the Magnuson rep about a TVS 1900. It's just a little bigger than the MP90 in each dimension. Not sure of the weight difference. Oh, well, not doing that anytime soon anyway, plenty here to keep busy. :p

[MMGT1]

Brother B... I think its time dude....

Edit... maybe some 60lb injectors are in order first though...lol, 'cuz your beatin' those like a red headed step child bud!!

[sleepyalero]

Little over 4* KR I see ;)

[AleroB888]

This chirping was from the PS pump, I put another one in last night. Ran it today for about 10 miles. Just some whining noise which should disappear.



Haha it still whines more than it should, but now after a few hard launches at da track, it's leaking again from the solenoid fitting....and the big radiator hoses pulled loose and leaked a bit.....

I think it's getting back to normal :p

[MMGT1]

LOL... aint modding fun bro! And sleepy, that is 0.4* KR, he's a degree or less it looks like and in a 3400 that is very good actually. Ive seen bone stock with up to 8* in these things. In most platforms I would not want to see any KR but these are so sensitive that I would not be bothered with a degree or so in one. A lot of factors will equate to "False KR" in a v6... now if it is audible, completely different story. You would want to pull timing right away if you can actually hear the "ping" when it knocks

[MilzyZ34]

The .4 degrees is where the cursor line is highlighted. It's slightly higher a little before that, looks like a little over a degree, maybe 2. It also happened right when he hit the throttle, so it could be false knock from the mounts or something, but it could be real, you just need more scans to tell. Anyways, anything less than 1 is nothing to complain about.

How much boost does that have? Timing looks a little aggressive if boost is up there and you're running 93 octane.

[AleroB888]

Built engine from WOT-Tech is in the works! However, there is no hurry on that, since I need more time to do some unfinished projects and completely destroy the old engine. Up next is improving the SC mounts and cleaning up the flaws of, and porting the castings:

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/002_zpsd2dcaefa.jpg

Big mismatch on both sides there

[AleroB888]

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/casting-ported-1_zps8c8a7299.jpg

[unchained01]

That worked out nicely !!

[MMGT1]

Lookin' good B!

[AleroB888]

"new and improved" SC mount:

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/SCmount-3_zps33e90045.jpg

[AleroB888]

Can't tell too much there, but got about 1/4 inch more hood clearance. The driveshaft sits about where the one did on Magnuson's original MP62 kit.....

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/SC-hood-clearance_zps1f9a2097.jpg

And here is a plaster mold to make a custom coupler pipe to the UIM:

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/coupler-mold-1_zps9b55a829.jpg

Tested the ported inlet/outlets today, and did get a couple more psi boost. Hit 13-14 psi, and over a broader rpm range. Yay

[AleroB888]

very nice man.would you say the supercharger is worth the cash and time?

Since I plan to install one on my other car, I say yeah.

[Papa Rad17]

I cant wait for that new engine with all of this! cant wait to see new numbers even with what you just did either.

[AleroB888]

Got another intake:

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/snazzy/003_zps7a76e4ed.jpg

[AleroB888]

Mock-ups!
Reconfiguring components for a blow-through intercooled setup. This may be my last attempt at it.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/001_zpsyak4dyrl.jpg

[AleroB888]

painted the steel mount hardware (except half-round tubes, which are an extra set; ones in use now are stainless)

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/004_zps6kriwy3p.jpg

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/drive-mount%206-1-15_zpsdjn4k5tx.jpg

test setup w/ new type stock MAF sensor, BOV/bypass pipe in place.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/blow-thru%20test%20setup-1_zpsdv84lbdk.jpg

[Papa Rad17]

Nice

[AleroB888]

BOV/bypass, throttle side

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/boost-control-1_zpskmsiymaw.jpg

[AleroB888]

about to make first test of concept under some boost. Looks scary, don't it? :nuts:

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/BT-test%20setup-3_zps56uhrzyn.jpg

[AleroB888]

Completed 2 test drives..... after shortening the cable linkage it finally got 2-3 psi boost. That's almost what was expected for using a rain cap as a valve..... no attempt was made to improve the seal at the mating surfaces. Plus the boost pressure has some leverage to force it open.
But nothing terrible happened on the tests, so now I'll try to come up with a non-leaky valve :)

Ha, just remembered I forgot to reflash the PCM for the stock MAF

[AleroB888]

I used a throttle body as the BOV (or bypass, or recirculating valve). This one is only 58mm, not 65mm like I think it needs. And it should be mounted closer to the charge tubing.

Got in 3 test runs, blew out 3 different silicone couplers. lol
Made it to 10 psi on the last one. Acceleration from standing start was good, so the method seems to have potential. But abrupt deceleration has yet to be tested.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/BT-test-setup-2_zpsjoly4g71.jpg

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/SC/BT-test-setup-2B_zpsz286h9xy.jpg

[AleroB888]

I tightened up the connections and made another test run, and the device appears to work. Floored it from 25 mph, spun the tires and it pulled nicely up to about 60 mph. The charge pipes shifted around some, and then I had to trim the actuator lever on the "BOV."

The throttle response is different than the standard non-intercooled setup was. Sort of like a mechanical secondary on a 4-barrel carb. Since the two throttle plates tip in at different rates, It required a progressive linkage where the primary TB opens about 15 degrees before the secondary TB (BOV) starts to close. That's an adjustment that mainly affects part throttle response. But BOV opens instantly when you lift your foot, with the help of a return spring

I have to admit, this is the scared-est I've been to drive this thing.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/BOV-1_zpsygpbxqvc.jpg

[Papa Rad17]

Video? Cant wait to see track times! :thumb:

[richardg]

Video? Cant wait to see track times!

x2. I'm not into modding for power anymore so I'll live through you guys. Looks great

[AleroB888]

Thanks, guys. This is in the early prototype stage, and still a lot of things to test. I have to make sure it will be safe to operate long-term, and not damage the supercharger. A lot of things will have to change on it before it can race. I've had very little time to take it out for test drives, busy with personal affairs.

The most difficult thing to do on this now is get the noise level under control. In this configuration, the whine and howl from the supercharger is extreme (kind of weird sounding), even with that Fram filter and intake tube muffling some of it. So it's not nearly video-ready. :)

[AleroB888]

Took a 10-mile cruise and peaked at 12 psi, which is pretty good considering the restrictive warm-air intake tract. But I did have some debris from the blower make it through the intercooler to the MAF screen, and a trace of PCV vapor oil in the intercooler pipes.....(I'll deal with the PCV later, right now it is fed to the blower inlet.)

I put a screen in the pipe from blower to intercooler, and revised the BOV actuator as a self-contained unit.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/BOV-3_zpsnj5fdkim.jpg

Then, to make sure outside air is not pulled back thru the BOV under vacuum conditions, I cut up half-inch squares of paper, put them in the BOV outlet, and a screen over that to keep them in. I drove around the block at low rpm, and the paper stayed on the screen, indicating a constant outward airflow.

I haven't had much time for test driving, but it's not fun in this heat anyway. On the WOT runs that I did make, the temp. increase post-intercooler stayed below 20 degrees, even with no water lines hooked up on the intercooler yet. Normally, I'd see a 50-70 degree increase during 0-60 mph runs in this heat.

The blower noise, though, is going to be a huge challenge. It's loud, obnoxious, and almost constant.

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/Engine%20bay-2%207-25-15_zpsieijmfec.jpg

[cavedewler]

so is that an extra coolant bottle with the green cap?

[AleroB888]

Nope, in this incarnation it's a washer fluid bottle.

[adrian13]

Nice!!

hmm... you just gave me an idea for the snow meth injector fluid reservoir location with the washer fluid bottle.

Also, I was looking at your configuration for the pcv system. Where does the pcv valve on the front valve cover go too? Also, how's the rear valve cover opening connected to the front or the uim for vacuum?

[AleroB888]

Nice!!

hmm... you just gave me an idea for the snow meth injector fluid reservoir location with the washer fluid bottle.

Also, I was looking at your configuration for the pcv system. Where does the pcv valve on the front valve cover go too? Also, how's the rear valve cover opening connected to the front or the uim for vacuum?

That washer bottle iirc was from a Saab but doesn't quite fit for hoods that use a stock prop rod.

The PCV hose from front cover goes to the blower inlet casting, until I can find a better way to do it. I'll probably tap into the driver's side top of the UIM.

The rear one uses a 90 degree brass elbow and hose going to a small filter in the driver's side of engine compartment (not under vacuum). That's one of the things I hope I get time to finish later.

The intercooler traps a lot of the PCV vapor oil, but I still don't like it going through the blower and having to clean out the intercooler, even though my intercooler does not have to be removed to clean. The MAF sensor, especially, should not be subject to any PCV vapors. I have been taking apart the intercooler pipes every other day to check their condition. Still a lot of things to sort out in this build. :)

[adrian13]

I hope that the pcv doesn't push oil also through the blower under boost because I think it could mess up the blower too. You should put an oil catch can instead.

I know that there's tons of things you're planning to do with this build. I am looking forward to your seeing how your build progresses.

I am looking to turn the motor over tomorrow for LA1 swapped Malibu. Its the first time in almost 4 years lol. I've been super slow and missing lots of parts with endless trips to the junk yard for misc nuts bolts and lots of wires. I've been a little stumped lately with the mp62 pcv routing. Lots of thinking...

[AleroB888]

I hope that the pcv doesn't push oil also through the blower under boost because I think it could mess up the blower too. You should put an oil catch can instead.

I know that there's tons of things you're planning to do with this build. I am looking forward to your seeing how your build progresses.

I am looking to turn the motor over tomorrow for LA1 swapped Malibu. Its the first time in almost 4 years lol. I've been super slow and missing lots of parts with endless trips to the junk yard for misc nuts bolts and lots of wires. I've been a little stumped lately with the mp62 pcv routing. Lots of thinking...

At one point in the past, I ran the PCV tube from the front valve cover to an aluminum oil cooler in front between the headlights, then routed it back to the blower. The reason I did it then was to keep heat out of the blower, but I may revisit that method. It did trap a lot of vapor, but I did not "invent" a practical way to drain it. Shouldn't be too difficult,though.....:)

[AleroB888]

Finally got the nerve to do some scans on this thing. For ambient temps in the mid 80s, it did quite well. The "all data loaded" mode on the histogram shows no Knock Retard (KR) anywhere. That was a welcome surprise, and may be the best I've ever got under similar conditions. IAT was taken at the MAF inlet, not in the UIM as I prefer to do.
PSI peaked at about 11, and charge temp rise at the IAT sensor was 16 degrees:

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/BT-scan-081715_zpsxckrkewv.jpg

The engine wear and tear has caught up with us, as the ongoing misfires I've had on #1 have gotten worse, and #3 and #4 are starting to join in. So it's been intermittantly throwing P 300 and P 141 codes, usually before it warms up. A couple times I did get a flashing SES, which after a short time things seemed to pop back into place and it ran "normally."

http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr299/Gflash01/Engine%20bay%207-28-15_zps5sz8gqto.jpg

[AleroB888]

^ Well, maybe it's not as bad as I thought. Turned out I had a bad fuel pressure regulator. Replaced it with a stock 55 psi unit, and no flashing SES for 2 days. She really peps up once the ambient temps go below 80. Need to get a scan of the upshift into 3rd, which had a KR problem before. I think it needs a trip to the track :)

[AleroB888]

^ Well, maybe it's not as bad as I thought. Turned out I had a bad fuel pressure regulator. Replaced it with a stock 55 psi unit, and no flashing SES for 2 days. She really peps up once the ambient temps go below 80. Need to get a scan of the upshift into 3rd, which had a KR problem before. I think it needs a trip to the track :)

I did have a successful outing at the 1/8 mile track (Ohio Valley), 3 runs of about 8.5 seconds in Fall of 2015

I won't be able to progress on this project due to health reasons, or possibly not even drive cars for a long time. Posting on internet is very difficult now, but I'll put out new info when I can. The SC is off the car now, which is running but has misfire issues with the new engine. It's well past time to pass the torch on this project, but practical matters will make it a slow process.....