Radiator fluid leak and can't find out where

[dbailey]

Well I'm befuddled! :( My 2000 Alero 3.4 with 200,000+ on her sprung a leak. I could have sworn it was the water pump laying down and just went ahead and changed it. NOT! :cry: After a closer examination, it looks like it is dripping off of the block between the crank pulley and the a/c pulley but closer to the a/c pulley. And it leaks pretty bad. Yesterday I pull up in the driveway and quite a bit leaked out. Just filled the reservoir back up after the pump change and it started dripping out almost immediately. Anybody ever experience anything like this in this area before? Can't imagine where it is coming from. Any ideas/experience sharing will be greatly appreciated gents. Thanks.

[dbailey]

Additional info. I think I recall somebody once telling me that they had a similar leak and had chased it to an o-ring that apparently goes around the timing chain cover where the engine routes the radiator fluid as part of the cooling system. Sound familiar to anybody? If so, how difficult to do-it-yourself? Thanks again.

[a.graham52]

use an inspection mirror and a small flash light and see if you can trace it.

[dbailey]

Got a mirror and tried looking around but couldn't find anything from the top. Very limited areas that you can get to with a mirror. One thing I'm fairly certain of is that its not coming from the intake manifold gasket because it looks pretty dry where it bolts to the head at least at the points I could see. The problem with checking from under it is you have to jack it up to get under it and with the fluid dripping while its running, I don't think that is an option to lay there without getting soaked with radiator fluid unless someone can suggest a better way. :(

[a.graham52]

maybe try and remove your inner fender and snap a pic with a digital camera and see if that can help determin your problem. none of yoru hoses are cracked are they? how aobut spring clamps. i had to replace 3 spring clamps because once i removed them they no longer sealed up.

[dbailey]

Ran my hand around all of the hoses on that side and there was no evidence of fluid. I really thought it was that darn water pump which is why is jumped so quick to replace it based on where it was dripping from and I could have sworn that when I ran my hand right under it I felt fluid. Talk about a bummer when I replaced it and it still was leaking! But if you have the 3.4, you can look down below the water pump and right between the crank pulley and a/c pulley closer to the a/c pulley is where the fluid drips off of the block. That's seems to be in the area where the timing chain cover would be I think. Anybody know for sure that's maybe had yours out and can say exactly where the timing chain cover is located on the 3.4?

[a.graham52]

i replaced the water pump on mine and the first time i tightned all the bolts and slammed the hood. what i didnt know was the pump wasnt flat on the black and that left a couple of bolts loose after tightening them all up. if you pull off your belt and pulley you can check how tight the bolts are again and it will also give you a better look at the leak

[dbailey]

Good idea. I tightened the bolts in a crisscross manner like lugs nuts and made triple sure I got them all tight. May go back out there and pull that pulley though to get a better look. Thanks for the suggestion dude. ;)

[a.graham52]

u cleaned the gasket surface on the block of all gasket material correct?

[dbailey]

Cleaned it real good with a razor blade and double checked it to make sure it was good and clean. Put the RTV gasket goo that came with the pump on both sides of the gasket too to make sure it sealed real good. One odd thing that kinda struck me though was the weep hole on the new one wound up being on top and I always thought they should be on bottom but the bolt holes wouldn't line up exactly unless the weep hole was on top. My old one didn't have a weep hole at all. :(

[a.graham52]

did your new one have two weep holes? im pretty sure mine did.

[dbailey]

Naw I didn't see any weep holes in it at all. Surprised me for sure.

[a.graham52]

i was talking about the new one lol. but i suppose it doesnt matter too too much about where the hole is. once it fills up it will still leak out.

[dbailey]

As far as I can recall there was only 1 hole which is what made it seem so weird that it only had 1 and it wound up on top. :wacko:

[dbailey]

If I take the water pump pulley off after I take the belt off, would it hurt to start the engine and let it run for a minute or two to see if I can tell where the leak is coming from????

[a.graham52]

if the engine is COLD you shoudl have a LITTLE time to safely run the engine without hurting anything. but no longer then 1 minute at the MOST. run it as little as possible.

[dbailey]

Thanks man. I liked your idea of getting that pulley out of the way to maybe see where the leak is coming from. Yesterday after I installed the new pump and filled the reservoir back up and cranked it up it started dripping like immediately from where ever its coming from.

[dbailey]

Wonder though if it'll kick a check engine light with the belt off and the alternator not being seen by the computer?

[a.graham52]

it might.... but i wouldnt worry about it. jsut make sure to get the belt all the way out so it doesnt get sucked into the crank. taht will ruin a good day.

[dbailey]

Great point on getting the belt outta there! Yeah that WOULD ruin what already sux of a day. I have an OBD II reader so can erase the code(s) if it does kick one. Hope I can get out there and get it done before the rain sets in. Plan on taking it to the shop tomorrow and it sure would be nice to help them with where the leak is/may be coming from so they don't either misdiagnose or try and charge me for extra time trying to find it. Thanks again.

[dbailey]

DAMN IT! Forgot. I took the tensioner tool I rented from AutoZone back this morning and now can't get the belt off. :cry: My 3/8" rachet will not move it far enough to get the belt off. Guess I'll just have to take it to the shop and hope they do a good diagnosis.

[a.graham52]

why wont the rachet move it enough? thats all i ever use and i work on these cars for a living

[dbailey]

I tried it yesterday and the place where I get the rachet to go in will not push it far enough to get the belt off. Will go out and try it again since you know it will work. Will let you know later. ;)

[a.graham52]

its a ratchet. so if you find you get turn it far enough... start over... but go further (in the ratcheting direction) then you started (take a bigger bite at it)

[dbailey]

Yeap you were right. Got it to move enough with the help of something I had to slip over the end of the ratchet handle but....when the tensioner rotated after I slipped the belt off it moved to a place where the ratchet won't come out now. Not enough clearance between tensioner and body. Any suggestions?

[MMGT1]

Your not just dealing with a cracked overflow bottle or a faulty cap are you? Sorry for the stupid post, but I gotta' ask guys

[dbailey]

Great question but I've replaced that bottle like 3 times. Thank God for Dorman's lifetime warranty. That's the first place I checked. For fluid around that area. Everything seemed dry all around there. Doesn't really show any leakage until down around the a/c pulley.

[a.graham52]

Yeap you were right. Got it to move enough with the help of something I had to slip over the end of the ratchet handle but....when the tensioner rotated after I slipped the belt off it moved to a place where the ratchet won't come out now. Not enough clearance between tensioner and body. Any suggestions?

man up and pull the ratchet back? lol. you could also use a long screw driver and turn the direction lever so it ratchets back towards you. jsut look at it and grunt and groan if necessary. you will get it.

[dbailey]

I'm thinkin it'd talk Popeye forearms if you know who Popeye is. lol Maybe I'm showin my age by referring to Popeye the Sailor Man! LMAO!!!!! The area you have to work with down in there is sooo tight it is damn near impossible to get a hold of the ratchet handle much less pull on it to overpower the tensioner spring. :cry: Wish I wouldn't have turned that tensioner tool back in.

[a.graham52]

something i have done in the past is reached down there with a prybar and pulled the ratchet out of tensioner and let it fall to the floor. i remember popeye. draw some anchors and those arms of yours and break open the can of green stuff. dont forget the pipe. you might look funy doing it but it will work ;)

[dbailey]

That is tooo funny. Forgot about the anchors! lol Went back out there and tried again and thought of the pry bar but I am not at my house and EVERYTHING other than a limited nubmer of tools are available. Lucky to have the small socket set. Had to improvise a leg off a a bedrail to use as a leverage bar to pry the too short ratchet handle back enough to get the belt off. Its round to can't use it as a pry bar to get the tensioner to flex back enough to get the ratchet out. What a bummer! Will look around and see if I can find something else that it thin enough to slide down in there.

[a.graham52]

Red Green that shit and use a 10lb hammer. beat the fender down out of yoru way, get the ratchet off, cut the belt off. rap some ducktape around the engine to seal it up and grab your favorite waist belt and rap that around your accessory drive. good to go. possum approved.

[dbailey]

Woo hoo! Yeah! The good 'ole North Carolina redneck way! Oh yeah, got the belt to slip past the ratchet. Got the pulley off the water pump and before I even went to start it I can see fluid dripping off the block and right above that is the bracket for the a/c and I can see fluid dripping off of the bottom of that but NOTHING from the water pump. Is there a part of the LIMG that you can't see where it could be leaking? Would it leak even with the engine not running and not having been started since yesterday?

[a.graham52]

its all possible. can you take a pic? i cant picture that much detail sence i had my engine apart 7k ago.

[dbailey]

Probably be too tough to get a good picture. I was able to get my mirror down in there and if you can imagine right below the nut that holds the a/c bracket onto the block, there is a nut I can see directly below that in the mirror and fluid is dripping off of that nut. Not idea what it is holding but it is dripping off of the end of it. Any idea?

[a.graham52]

ill go look at my car

[dbailey]

Ya know I may have just been really lucky in that I had to replace what I assume was the upper intake manifold gasket (IMG) before it hit 100,000 miles and have not had a problem since other than an occassional leak and now I've got over 200,000 on it. I put those vegetable-type tablets that GM sells that you crush up and put in the recovery tank and when I did that probably 50,000 miles ago the leak stopped. I'm not sure of the difference between the upper and lower IMGs. Is the upper one the one that is between the head and the intake that you can actually see right next to the water pump? If it is and you can't actually see the lower one then maybe it is the infamous LIMG that's finally bit the dust on me. Especially if part of it runs somewhere below the a/c bracket.

[a.graham52]

can you verify that there is no coolant leaking from the lower intake manifold? can you look in behind your p/s pump and is it dry? (looking over the red connector). then from the front look down behind the water pump(behind if your looking from the passenger side fender) is it dry in there? if it is dry and your water pump is NOT leaking. then its got to be the gaskets that go between your accessory bracket and the heads.

[dbailey]

Will go look at those 2 places real quick.

[dbailey]

Before I go though, it is from down behind the water pump right below it that the leak is. Real close to the a'c pulley dripping off of that nut you see.

[dbailey]

All I could see behind the power steering pump was a little bit of oil but nothing wet for at least the part you can actually see. Directly below the what I assume is the idler pulley is a nut and directly below that nut is another one that you can only see with a mirror. It is that nut that the fluid is dripping off of.

[a.graham52]

is it nut or a bolt or a bolt/stud with a nut? that accesory bracket has coolant going through it to each head and is attached by 6 bolts. (thee on each head)

[dbailey]

Will go see if I can get a better look at it and tell which it is. May be hard to see it on yours with the pulley still on your water pump and all. For a frame of reference though it is directly below the idler puller below the nut that holds the a/c bracket on.

[a.graham52]

im will to bet that crossover (accessory bracket) gasket is leaking. by the sounds of it its going to have to come apart either way.

[dbailey]

Ater wiping off alot of the gunk under there off it actually looks like it may be leaking from between the block and that nut that holds the a/c bracket on and then just making its way under to that what I think it a nut.

[dbailey]

So radiator fluid flows around that bracket? Is it above the a/c bracket?

[dbailey]

Around the idler pulley?

[a.graham52]

that peice of aluminum your water pump is bolted to goes into the front head and then over to the rear head. theres two metal gaskets (one on each head) sealing it up. if they go bad it wil lcause a leak.

[dbailey]

Best to just leave the water pump pulley and belt off and take it to the mechanic? Don't guess he'd need to start it since it is leaking on its own.

[dbailey]

Looking at alot of labor to replace that gasket?

[dbailey]

of course assuming that is what it is. It coming from somewhere around directly across from the idler pulley though i'm fairly certain of that part.

[a.graham52]

i woudlnt think so. pop the laternator off,get the p/s pump out of your way, then take of like 10 bolts and a couple of hoses and BAM you sir are a father

[dbailey]

Hey big guy I REALLY appreciate you sticking with me on this! You ARE da man! Brutus ain't got nuthin on you! Guess I'll just leave the belt off and loose bolt the pulley back on the water pump and the ratchet dangling from the tensioner and use my AAA towing benny and get it over there in the morning. Thanks so much! I'll let you know what it winds up being by tomorrow afternoon when I better be getting it back! ;)

[a.graham52]

hopfuly thats what it is. theres not much else it can be if the lower intake and the waterpump isnt leaking. good luck. good to talkt to you all day long lol

[dbailey]

Same here all day long! LMAO!!!! :rotflmao:

[dbailey]

One last question so I know what to tell the mechanic, what is the name of that piece that has the gaskets? The accessory something?

[a.graham52]

i would tell them your guessing its coming from the accessory bracket/ cross over pipe/water pump housing. they will probably pressure test it and verify

[dbailey]

Will do and thanks again. i guess pressurizing it will for sure make it leak more than it is now on its own which is a drip about every few seconds. ;)

[dbailey]

Well got it back today. It was exactly what was suspected. The accessory bracket gasket that goes around the timing chain cover had blown out and it was leaking fluid right around the front coolant jacket by the chain. It is a paper gasket though and I thought it was supposed to be metal? Hmmm....Oh well, will watch it to make sure it is in FACT not leaking anymore. One thing though that it was not doing before I took it to the mechanic is the anti-lock brake light is on now and wasn't before. Kicks a C1274 trouble code I think it is. Mechanic scratching his head because he said he didn't do anything that would have caused the anti-lock brakes to stop working that he can think of. Any ideas? On my way home I locked it up at around 30 mph and no anti-lock brakes. Brakes didn't even lock up. Disconnected the battery and am letting it sit for a bit and will reconnect and see if that resets everything.

[dbailey]

Well crap! Resetting the battery didn't work. Anti-lock brake light still on. Any ideas greatly appreciated. :cry:

[dbailey]

The diagnostics code it set is C1274 if that helps. :(

[dbailey]

The diagnostics code it set is C1274 if that helps. :(
Oops! Already said that. :drunk:

[SIUlero]

The wheel speed sensor wires to the right front wheel come into the harness right below the crossover/accessory bracket. Make sure those didn't get damaged when the new gasket was put in.

[dbailey]

The wheel speed sensor wires to the right front wheel come into the harness right below the crossover/accessory bracket. Make sure those didn't get damaged when the new gasket was put in.

Will do. Thanks for insight! ;)

[a.graham52]

i assumed the gaskets were metal. i thought mine were but i could be wrong. if it seals thats great! glad to see its fixed.

[a.graham52]

DTC C1274 VES Circuit Shorted to Voltage


Circuit Description
Battery voltage is supplied to power steering pump actuator terminal A when the EBCM commands the Electronic Brake Control Relay ON. Ground for the actuator is provided through EBCM terminal 18 to actuator terminal B. The EBCM controls the amount of current supplied to the actuator based on input from the ABS wheel speed sensors and the steering wheel position sensor.

Conditions for Setting the DTC
• DTC C1274 can be set anytime after ABS initialization.

• Excessive voltage drop across the power steering pump actuator driver.


Action Taken When the DTC Sets
• A malfunction DTC stores.

• VES is disabled and power steering returns to full assist.

• ABS remains functional.

Conditions for Clearing the DTC
• The condition responsible for setting the DTC no longer exists and the scan tool CLEAR DTCs function is used.

• 100 drive cycles pass with no ABS DTCs detected. A drive cycle consists of starting the vehicle, driving the vehicle over 16 km/h (10 mph), stopping and then turning the ignition OFF.

Diagnostic Aids
The following conditions may cause an intermittent malfunction:

• A poor connection

• Rubbed-through wire insulation

• A broken wire inside the insulation

• Open or short in any of the steering wheel sensor signal circuit wires

• Malfunctioning power steering pump actuator.

Use the enhanced diagnostic function of the scan tool in order to determine the frequency of the malfunction.

Thoroughly inspect any circuitry that may be causing the intermittent complaint for the following conditions:

• Backed out terminals

• Improper mating

• Broken locks

• Improperly formed or damaged terminals

• Poor terminal-to-wiring connections

• Physical damage to the wiring harness

Diagnose and correct all ABS DTCs prior to clearing VES DTCs. Clearing VES DTCs will automatically clear ABS DTCs resulting in a loss of DTC history data.

[dbailey]

Well I went back to the mechanic and we found the issue. He had forgotten to plug the harness connector back into the power steering pump. Couldn't understand how that would throw the ABS light. :(

[a.graham52]

DTC C1274 VES Circuit Shorted to Voltage


Circuit Description
Battery voltage is supplied to power steering pump actuator terminal A when the EBCM commands the Electronic Brake Control Relay ON. Ground for the actuator is provided through EBCM terminal 18 to actuator terminal B. The EBCM controls the amount of current supplied to the actuator based on input from the ABS wheel speed sensors and the steering wheel position sensor.
Conditions for Setting the DTC
• DTC C1274 can be set anytime after ABS initialization.

• Excessive voltage drop across the power steering pump actuator driver.


Action Taken When the DTC Sets
• A malfunction DTC stores.

• VES is disabled and power steering returns to full assist.

• ABS remains functional.

Conditions for Clearing the DTC
• The condition responsible for setting the DTC no longer exists and the scan tool CLEAR DTCs function is used.

• 100 drive cycles pass with no ABS DTCs detected. A drive cycle consists of starting the vehicle, driving the vehicle over 16 km/h (10 mph), stopping and then turning the ignition OFF.



the EBCM is going "wtf? theres something wrong with your steering!" and im sure there are times where if a modual could it would flash a light that looks like the finger... and not abs lol

[dbailey]

Dude you are too funny! Hey thanks so much for sticking with me on this one! You da man!!!! :yahoo:

[zzyzzx]

Great question but I've replaced that bottle like 3 times. Thank God for Dorman's lifetime warranty. That's the first place I checked. For fluid around that area. Everything seemed dry all around there. Doesn't really show any leakage until down around the a/c pulley.


Which is exactly why you shouldn't buy Dorman parts. They brake like mad!

[dbailey]

Which is exactly why you shouldn't buy Dorman parts. They brake like mad!
Yeah but since they replace them for free I'll stick with it until it fails another time or two. :drunk:

[zzyzzx]

I also prefer to call the actual fluid "coolant".

Last time I bought a Dorman part it was because the OEM version was crap too (on a Toyota Camry).