Head Gasket #3

[[ion] C2]

I found this color liquid in a couple cylinders today.
http://ion-productions.com/coolant.jpg

Ever since I did my head gasket last September, the cooling system has run at a higher temperature than normal, from minimal to excessive, due to a broken plastic heater hose connector, a leaking water outlet, a bad coolant tank/cap. But the Cometic gasket may have been leaking all along, ever since the install, working its way up until the point where I have a puddle of coolant in cylinder 2, and minimal amounts in 1 and 3.

Now it may be that other small things breaking making my car run at high temperatures caused the head gasket seal to fail. I can't be absolutely sure, as referenced in my Head Gasket #2 thread (http://www.aleromod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32248), quite a few people have torqued their heads to around 85 ft-lb with Cometics without issue.

When it's put back together, the water outlet leak, my intake manifold vacuum/boost leak will be all solved, so everything should be perfectly buttoned up in my car. What I need to know are suggestions for what gasket I should use...


Cometic steel, head torqued to only a little above the stock spec of 40 ft-lb
Cometic steel, head torqued to 80 ft-lb
GM composite/fiber (torqued to _?_ )Now the Fel-Pro blew with stock bolts on a small turbo. The GM blew with studs on the GT3076R, all the main studs were torqued to 75 ft-lb, although the small ones near cyl 1 were torqued to the stock spec of 40 ft-lb. The Cometic leaks at 88 ft-lb on studs.

This fucking sucks.

[heineck]

http://media.herald-dispatch.com/blog/idol/uploaded_images/Crying-Girl-789385.jpg

[mfuller]

Doesn't the Cometic head gasket require special block prep to seal correctly?
40RA rings a bell.

[[ion] C2]

Yes... the head was prepped to a perfect finish, but how do you suggest I prep the block, in-car? I simply used a mildly abrasive pad and brake cleaner and got it to be as smooth as I thought I could. Most people and the shop that did my head recommended using copper spray on the gasket. In fact that's how a lot of people got their Cometics to seal.

Should I re-use this gasket? Should I order a new Cometic and use copper spray? Or should I use the GM one, torqued to like 65-70 ft-lb? That's where I'm at.

[mfuller]

I would probably call Cometic to see what they recommend.
I don't know what you'd use to get an acceptable surface RA in-car, but I don't think a Scotch-Brite pad will cut the mustard.

[[ion] C2]

Ya that's what I used, takes off the old material very well.

I remember now that I read the other thread:
C2;555100']Replaced that head gasket with a factory GM gasket along with ARP head studs torqued to 75 lb-ft (but left the 2 small studs near cylinder 1 @ 40 lb-ft, my mistake).

That the GM one still blew on this turbo even though it was torqued high. Although the small studs around Cyl one (which failed) were torqued far less... which could've led to that failure. So I'm iffy to trust a GM one with everything at 75, because I can't be sure it failed solely due to me weakly torquing those small 2 studs or because it's a composite/fiber gasket in general.

So I'll probably use a Cometic (probably new... doubt I can trust this used one, especially since it failed, although Cometic claims they are re-usable. I guess it depends on how it failed, I'll have to look) I'm going to use copper spray for sure. The question is, what torque spec to use..

I'll have to look at the gasket, but I assume it either failed by seeping through the multi-layers, or that my excessive torquing flattened the embossed areas of the gasket, allowing coolant to go by with ease. I'm pretty sure Cometic recommended someone against going beyond 60 ft-lb on their LD9...

[guiguilandry]

What I did to my l67 with the cometic I used the copper spray and the recommendec torque was 90lbs... you have to use copper spray, but per the instructions... and you can't reuse the gasket..... gotta order a new one and what are the stock specs fot the studs/bolt maybe better get new if they are stretched

[[ion] C2]

They're ARP studs, they won't be a problem. I posted on J-Body to see what the recommended torque I should use is.
I've been using Cometics for 8 years now on a lot of cars and I heavily spray the gaskets on either side. I do not take it apart. I have never had an issue regardless of torque.

Ordering a new Cometic tomorrow.

[xXManwhoreXx]

Hondabond

/thread

Haha jk man I would have the block reprepped also have you checked that the deck hasnt warped? I would check thats its level all across.

[guiguilandry]

Hondabond

/thread

Haha jk man I would have the block reprepped also have you checked that the deck hasnt warped? I would check thats its level all across.

X2 it's obvious that you have to check the block deck for warp with a straight edge even if the block is not alumimium.... and the head too... personally I would get the head resurfaced again...

[Redog]

Should I start a pool on when you're going to be doing head gasket #4 :lol:

Really man, IDK why you rush these jobs so much. The end result isn't fun

[[ion] C2]

The last one took 3 weeks to do, I don't consider that rushing. I had the head prepped perfectly, the block was done the best you can in-car. It's a matter of using the right gasket, using or not using copper spray, and having the ideal head torque.

So I'm ordering another Cometic and using copper spray. The only other variable to determine is what to torque the head to. I will find out when I take the head off and look at the existing gasket to see if the embossed areas are flattened, if so, I'll torque everything to 55 or so instead of 85-90 like the three successful mid-high boosted guys have.

[Cliff8928]

I've never used it on a head gasket (only HGs I've done have been on stock motors). The copper spray is definitely FTMFW!

[cherrington17]

what is "copper spray"?

[spyhunter]

copper spray, cometic gasket, arp studs, torque the bitch to 85-90..... and torque everything down gradually in a series.

[[ion] C2]

Yep I'll be using 3 steps to 85 ft-lb as recommended by ARP and countless others. Last time I used like 6 steps, and not as much lube as I should've. And I'll be using spray as recommended by every single performance shop there is and every person who's ever used an MLS gasket...

[Cliff8928]

what is "copper spray"?

http://www.permatex.com/images/DisplayImage.asp?210|/images/ProductPhotos/80697.jpg (http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_sealants/auto_Permatex_Copper_Spray-A-Gasket_Hi-Temp_Adhesive_Sealant.htm)

[[ion] C2]

So I got it nearly down to the head gasket yesterday, all that's left to take off are the cam towers and turbocharger, very easy.

But I got a call from my friend today saying I might want to move my car out of the parking lot. His $3,000 car trailer was stolen last night. So even though my car doesn't run, now they have a trailer to take it away on... I personally don't think pulling my car back to my house is reasonably feasible.

Suggestions? Should I just make it as hard as possible to move? All ends on jack stands, no wheels? I don't feel like camping out every night until it's driveable...

[Chris2000]

go to a local p.d. and let them know that your friends trailer just got stolen cuz im pretty sure if it did he wouldve told them n they would know and u can let them know you are doing something and need the car to stay there til you are down and have them patrol it every once in a while or something since they would want to catch the criminals to help the stolen trailer case anyways. Your car is like perfect bait.

[kwhauck]

You don't have a hidden battery kill switch? You should have one for the track anyways.....

[[ion] C2]

What's the battery have to do with anything? I have an alarm that I'd like to go off if the car is tampered with, and the car won't have a head by this evening. It's not like they're going to drive it away. But being that they have a trailer, they could push it up onto it.

I'll take home as much stuff as I can and push it to a position that would be difficult to get it out of.

[robalero]

park a car infront of it and have yours up agains't something

[Lucalare]

I like the idea of jack stands and no wheels, unless they happen to be carrying around a set of 5x114.3 rims that car isn't moving.

[robalero]

or decide to steal the brakes

[heineck]

Or tip it just for shits

[robalero]

yup, people are dicks specially when they don't know you

[AZFire316]

is your car a hot item in your area for theft? around here, they break in attempt to start, if no go, then take the stereo and leave the car behind

[[ion] C2]

I don't know, I've never had any vandalism or attempted break ins. It's an Alero, no one thinks anything of it.

[AZFire316]

I wouldnt sweat it too much, and I wouldnt leave it on jackstands, people are jerks, some kids could walk by and cut brake lines, steal the brakes or be real jerks and push the car off the stands.

[kwhauck]

Yeah just don't sweat it. And you are only worried now that your friends trailer was stolen.......you do know lots of people have trailers right? lol

[[ion] C2]

No, the fact that it was stolen right next to my car hints that that lot is susceptible to theft pretty easily, and that someone or a group of someones are stealing stuff out of that lot. The cameras the building owner have don't work of course.

[kwhauck]

A trailer is much easier to steal than a car, not as easy to trace, and easy to turn around and sell for a quick buck. I wouldn't worry about it....

[[ion] C2]

I'm not worried about it.

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/1.jpg

Found out my badass oil drain line hardened and just broke apart.. apparently being 1/2" away from a 700 degree turbine wears on it. Gonna use heat shield tubing on the feed and drain when I put it all back together.

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/2.jpg

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/3.jpg

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/4.jpg

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/5.jpg

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/6.jpg

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/7.jpg

My wastegate hose (which is just as close to the turbo essentially) still maintains its pliability and seal since it has that fire sleeve on it. Should've used one on all my hoses nearby from the start.

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/8.jpg

[robalero]

be easy to do your t-stat now with half of the engine tore apart lol

[AZFire316]

atleast it didnt break apart while you were driving down the road, that could have been bad.

[xXManwhoreXx]

Not feeling the log manifold man when you gonna upgrade!

[[ion] C2]

why should I, it works, spyhunter's 432whp was with it

[widbyj]

With forced induction the log is fine. When running normally aspirated something like the OEM intake with balanced runners will flow better...

[[ion] C2]

Nah tubular would be superior for sure, but for me it's a low-priority. Trying to fix everything and make it solid.

[[ion] C2]

Copper sprayed
http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/10.jpg

Head back on, torqued to 80 ft-lb (30, 58, 80 for three steps), should be around 14,000 lbs of clamping force.
http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/9.jpg

It should be running tomorrow. Hope for no leaks.

[XanderWiFi]

The copper spray melt at a lower temp to form a secure seal when cooling?

If you need some heat wrap I can send you some. It was hard to find here in El Paso but you may have an easier time of it where you are.

[[ion] C2]

The copper spray melt at a lower temp to form a secure seal when cooling?
Copper spray fills in the gaps and allows for slight movement to help with the shearing forces that come into play from the aluminum head/iron block combination with a metal gasket. All I know is copper spray is recommended by everyone for Cometic gaskets. It seems to make the chance of success nearly 100%, whereas putting it on with only the tiny, tiny layer of fluoroelastomer gives you a 50/50 chance of it sealing. Here's to hoping it finally gets sealed up..
If you need some heat wrap I can send you some. It was hard to find here in El Paso but you may have an easier time of it where you are.
It's all over here. I already have DEI heat sheaths for the oil feed and drain hoses. I have my coolant hoses near the downpipe wrapped in reflective tape, and I'm going to get a sheet of insulated shiny stuff to replace the torn up ugly fiberglass stuff on the firewall.

[heineck]

hey c2 wat size bolts did u use to lock in the cam gears??

[[ion] C2]

8mm diameter

car's almost done

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/11.jpg

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/12.jpg

Both cam sprockets are on, pic taken when there was still some light out.
http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/13.jpg



It'd be so great if, for once, I could just drive my car and not worry about the temperature being too high, or blowing out all my coolant during/after any high RPM activity... everything should be perfectly set up this time (minus something peculiar I noticed on the head surface around the combustion chambers, I'll show you what I mean if there's issues)..

[hok666]

You need to clean your engine bay:P

Anyway... Did you fab. up those strut bar mounting plates yourself?

[robalero]

you need more brake fluid by the looks of it lol

[[ion] C2]

Did you fab. up those strut bar mounting plates yourself?
My welder friend did, had to move the strut bar forward with the GT3076R because it didn't clear going between the 2 bolts.

[[ion] C2]

It's been raining hard all day, and I've been outside laying on the ground putting on the timing stuff and finishing up this job. What a bitch. I changed twice already.

Back in time..
http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/14.jpg

http://ion-productions.com/headGasket3/15.jpg


Fluids in. Going to crank it a few times to get things circulating, then turn on the fuel and spark and see what happens.



Hope it runs smooth, no vacuum leaks, no overheating/coolant blow out... http://survivorskills.com/forum/Smileys/emoticons/pray.gif

[hok666]

I do like the strut mount plates I think I will have some made up at work. They have a laser cutter I'm thinking stainless:D

[spyhunter]

Not feeling the log manifold man when you gonna upgrade!

He'll make plenty of power with the log.

[[ion] C2]

Now that I fixed the exhaust leak at the wastegate, it seems to really have more pep in the low end haha.

I drove it home just now. Not optimistic about it being fixed though. I should've had the head machined again. I'll know for sure after I check the cylinders tomorrow afternoon with it sitting overnight.

[cherrington17]

This has to be..... at least.... the 5th time I've heard Ion say "i fixed X and it seems to have more pep in Y end"

and... probably the 3rd time he was talking about his car.

[DOHC_tuner]

You should be fine now with the copper spray. I've done alot of reading on this issue's.

It was said the Cometic company said not to use copper spray on there gaskets....well everyone seems to have issues when they don't. So everyone turns around and uses the spray and NO LEAKS!

I too plan to go with a cometic and some copper spray.

Good luck

[[ion] C2]

Yeah so far so good. Things are dry, pressure is held.. coolant temperature likes to stay around 190-196, max 200 in severe stop and go traffic..