Gas Fumes

[XanderWiFi]

The other day my wife asked me if I smelled gas fumes when we were parked but I did not at that time. Now I have been driving and randomly smelling gas and it freaks me out a bit. It seems to occur when I do city driving: a lot of stopping/going/heavier acceleration. I have not noticed any leaks nor do I smell any gas fumes coming from the exhaust (like I would if it were running rich maybe? But I have a CAI so I should be lean if anything...). Nor does the engine compartment smell of any fumes while running with the hood up.

I run 88 octane because the alternative is 86. My best theory is that I may have a leak at the top of the tank and the sloshing from city driving is causing spillage. Anyone have any other theories, sources or tests I could do to locate a leak? Or does heavy acceleration create a temporary gas fume from extra fuel injection? And when I say "heavy acceleration" I do not mean pedal to the medal-just 3-4k rpms to scoot in and out of traffic where I need to.

[robalero]

might be leaking on top of the gas tank

[alero_bmxer]

check and see if you have any leaky injectors.

[Lucalare]

Rev it a little bit with the hood open (just twist the throttle in the engine bay), and see if the smell turns up. I would guess it's one of those little seals on an injector, cause if there was a leak from your tank you'd be throwing a SES light.

[alero_bmxer]

also look for wet spots around the injector ports.

[Philbar71]

Could be a leaky Fuel Pressure Regulator. Mine went out and you could smell gas through the vents when parked.

[XanderWiFi]

Thanks all. I'll check on those tomorrow. For a quick reference: where is the fuel rail on the 3400?

I'm especially interested in the regulator part. That is when I can smell it the most: when I am stationary.

[Philbar71]

^ If i Recall... Its under the LIM on the 3.4... But I dont know the 3.4 too well, so dont take me word for word.

[Gr1m]

its under the UIM that says 3400 SFI on it, you will see the fuel rail with all the injectors.

[scott192]

its under the UIM that says 3400 SFI on it, you will see the fuel rail with all the injectors.

and the fuel pressure regulator is on the right with a vacuum line on it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHTV3W5VI5w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUIIn32nlvA

and dont tap your injectors!! its just to show you where they are!!! please dont snap your injectors

[XanderWiFi]

Interesting vids. Thanks scott. No issues with mpg (27-28 mpg) or stalling or hard starts...Gonna call the shop just to be sure and have her looked at. We'll see if it still happens today or if I am imagining it. Placebo effect ya'know?

[zzyzzx]

I was expecting this thread to be about the aftermath of a trip to Taco Bell.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_YFuM6fka4l8/SH6oxeqKH-I/AAAAAAAAAGc/zIYiyf7HnmI/s400/terranceAndPhillip.jpg

Seriously, when I had this exact same problem happen to my Escort, it was the fuel filler tank hose (flexible hose between the metal fuel filler piece and gas tank). With the gas tank level at the appropriate level it's only noticable when takeing a turn. If the hose gets bad enough, gas will spill right out when doing a fill up. It would explain why you aren't seeing or smelling anything in the front of the car or with the hood up. I was smelling gas everywhere but from under the hood, and it was very consusing. The offending bad hose looked like this:

http://a.imageshack.us/img822/2097/escortfuelfillerhose01.jpg

When I say the problem was confusing, it was because mine was at the beginning stages of being bad. If you wait long enough and the hose gets worse, you'll easily notice a gas puddle when filling up the car. I know you stated no MPG problems, but this hose could have just gone bad.

It's easy enough to check.

[kwhauck]

My question is why are you running 88 octane?

[XanderWiFi]

The recommended octane is 87 I know this to be true. But in El Paso the octanes only go by 86, 88 and 91. So I figure it is better to be an octane up than an octane down.

Z-that is actually really good input. I drove quite a bit today, took it easier on the throttle which is to say I tried to keep everything around 2k rpms or less and had no problems whatsoever. I went to get a haircut, pulled a sharp and fast U-turn, parked a minute or two later and hot damn! Gas smell up near the front driver side that seemed to be coming from the engine compartment. Though it could have been from anywhere it was strong enough. Pulling out of the parking lot I heard a strange sloshing sound from the front I had not heard before...

I am beginning to worry that I am going to randomly combust.

[zzyzzx]

I went to get a haircut, pulled a sharp and fast U-turn, parked a minute or two later and hot damn! Gas smell up near the front driver side that seemed to be coming from the engine compartment. Though it could have been from anywhere it was strong enough. Pulling out of the parking lot I heard a strange sloshing sound from the front I had not heard before...

Check the fuel filler hose, even though it's at the back of the car.


I am beginning to worry that I am going to randomly combust.

I also wondered if I was driving the Hindenburg.

[kwhauck]

The recommended octane is 87 I know this to be true. But in El Paso the octanes only go by 86, 88 and 91. So I figure it is better to be an octane up than an octane down.

Z-that is actually really good input. I drove quite a bit today, took it easier on the throttle which is to say I tried to keep everything around 2k rpms or less and had no problems whatsoever. I went to get a haircut, pulled a sharp and fast U-turn, parked a minute or two later and hot damn! Gas smell up near the front driver side that seemed to be coming from the engine compartment. Though it could have been from anywhere it was strong enough. Pulling out of the parking lot I heard a strange sloshing sound from the front I had not heard before...

I am beginning to worry that I am going to randomly combust.

pshh......that's a crock, I used 85 for years and never had a problem......

[XanderWiFi]

pshh......that's a crock, I used 85 for years and never had a problem......


Ease up now. I didn't say I had a problem with the engine running on 86. But if I had to choose between going above or below the recommended standard I choose to go above. But I wonder if going a little higher could produce some extra fumage that would not be there on the standard.

And for a gas leak to have enough fumes to smell up in the interior there would have to be a pretty substantial leak. And for that kind of leak shouldn't I be throwing codes for there being a break in the vacuum? Such is what a mechanic said to me today. Makes sense.

Beginning to wonder if it isn't in my head or something.

[robalero]

not always, I had a leak from when I broke my fuel line ( very very very small crack in it ) and I could smell it in the car yet it was on the fuel filter but I could only smell mine when the car was stopped

[zzyzzx]

And for a gas leak to have enough fumes to smell up in the interior there would have to be a pretty substantial leak. And for that kind of leak shouldn't I be throwing codes for there being a break in the vacuum? Such is what a mechanic said to me today. Makes sense.


When my fuel filler hose broke (pictured above) I got no codes. The whole thing was confusing until I bothered to look at that hose. I did think (at times) that it was somehow leaking into the car as well, and on an Escort, at least that's more plausible since you do remove the back seat to get at the fuel pump.

[Lucalare]

Ease up now. I didn't say I had a problem with the engine running on 86. But if I had to choose between going above or below the recommended standard I choose to go above. But I wonder if going a little higher could produce some extra fumage that would not be there on the standard.

And for a gas leak to have enough fumes to smell up in the interior there would have to be a pretty substantial leak. And for that kind of leak shouldn't I be throwing codes for there being a break in the vacuum? Such is what a mechanic said to me today. Makes sense.

Beginning to wonder if it isn't in my head or something.

No you wouldn't get extra fumes because I run 89-93 in mine year round, and I've never smelled gas.

[zzyzzx]

not always, I had a leak from when I broke my fuel line ( very very very small crack in it ) and I could smell it in the car yet it was on the fuel filter but I could only smell mine when the car was stopped

Did it brake on it's own, or did you break it?

[XanderWiFi]

Had the mechanic check it out and the injectors, lines, hoses, regulator all checked out fine. However, the gas cap was not sealing properly which makes sense for why I would smell it when making heavy turns and such. Easy fix-no problems since. Glad it worked out this way.

[scott192]

and you didnt get the canister leak code?

[XanderWiFi]

Nope. Not one code. the cap would screw on, but it was not sealing as it should.

[Lucalare]

Weird, that usually throws a code, must have been a pretty minor leak.

[zzyzzx]

A loose gas cap can't possible cause this without throwing a code! Are you sure that the SES light is working? Are you sure that the fuel filler hose was checked? I'm not sure I believe your mechanic.

[zzyzzx]

Weird, that usually throws a code, must have been a pretty minor leak.

If it's that minor there would not be the fumes, or at least not enough to smell it like that.

[Lucalare]

This is true....I'd check that light (should come on at key on, engine off)

[scott192]

x2^

[XanderWiFi]

As far as I can recall the light works upon start up and whatnot. If it locks on, but seals poorly, it may have only become unlocked long enough to start leaking gas, then reseal (though a poor seal). I'll pay closer attention, but I have not had any fumes so far. I am skeptical of the mechanic too since it was my first time going to them, but they come well recommended and most places would still hose you here just for the inspection.

How easy is it to check out the filler hose? Jack up the back rear or do I need to drop the gas tank?

[robalero]

Did it brake on it's own, or did you break it?

I broke it lol

[XanderWiFi]

I spoke to soon. I will be revisiting the possibility of the filler hose being bad because I got more whiffs of gas fumes when making a 90 degree left turn today. Oddly though, the other time this has happened I was able to get out of the car almost immediately and I smelled gas coming from the engine compartment. Being out in public though, I didn't get to open the hood to see anything.

Such an odd thing. No leaks anywhere, the mechanics said they couldn't find any residue that would indicate a leak...totally stumped.

Update: filled the tank up and after using half a tank with the new cap I pulled 29 mpg rather than the normal 28 max. After filling her I went and drove some quick circles since turning seems to precipitate the fumes but I smelled nothing after that. Nothing in the interior, nothing from the engine except hot metal...

Can you just simply get some fumes from idling a bit, then accelerating?

[zzyzzx]

Can you just simply get some fumes from idling a bit, then accelerating?

No. Did you check the fuel filler hose yet?

[XanderWiFi]

Not yet. Is it viewable without taking anything apart?

Is the gas pump on the front left? I started my car up, moved it back ten feet, shut it off, crawled under the front and could smell gas in the front left section-but I do not know if that is just the pump priming.

[Lucalare]

The fuel pump is in the tank, maybe your pressure regulator is leaking a little, but I'm not sure where that is.

[XanderWiFi]

That is on the right side of the engine, or my left when i am underneath...with no codes it is such a pain in the ass.

[zzyzzx]

Not yet. Is it viewable without taking anything apart?

I wouldn't know. It happened to my Escort and all I did was look under the car.

[XanderWiFi]

Still haven't had a chance to look under the car but I got some nasty fumes when gunning it at a light to get ahead of some traffic...The fumes at the end of my exhaust do not smell rich but is there a possibility that I could have a fume leak higher on the line? At times it smells like a mix of exhaust and fuel fumes. Other times just straight gas fumes.

It all sucks because I have a poor sense of smell and is hard for me to tell.

[zzyzzx]

It all sucks because I have a poor sense of smell and is hard for me to tell.

That's why you have to get under the car and look.

[XanderWiFi]

Well, I'm getting pretty nervous. Looked under the car but could not see anything out of the ordinary pertaining to the lines and such that I could see, but I have an added problem to this whole fume thing: my car won't start.

It cranks and cranks and cranks but it is cranking longer and longer without starting. At times, it starts but runs very rough as though only half the cylinders are running and usually stalls out soon after. Seems more like a cough cough wheeeze...like it is choked. It first started after driving through a puddle, slowly, but a sizely puddle. I figured that maybe some of my wires may have some damage so I replaced the spark plugs and wires. No change-if anything it is getting worse.

I did some searching: my fuel filter probably only has 25k on it and is changed yearly (in fact I am getting ready to do this year's change soon). I turn the key on and I can hear the pump buzz on, no security light, no service engine lights, a mechanic hooked it up and said the fuel pressure is fine (don't have the numbers) and two mechanics have yet to find a leak nor have I. My money is on a fuel pump but I don't know.

How this links with gas fumes? I get out of work tonight, it is cold, but not colder than the multiple Ohio winters this car has been through in the past. I try to start it up and just keep cranking it forever until I almost resign to call my wife and have her pick me up because the battery won't last forever. Luckily, it starts and I drive to get some gas because I am low. Fill the tank up, have to crank for a while again to start her up but not quite as long.

When fully started she runs and idles great. I get home without any event and pull into my garage, shut the door and go inside to shower. Come back downstairs and the gas fumes are so strong that we can smell them coming under the cracks of two doors from our garage. Hot damn! No one can find a source of the problem and the car computer sure as heck isn't pointing me in any direction...at this rate I figure I will blow up at some point.

[zzyzzx]

I am not convinced that the two are related. If you are still smelling gas fumes, then you haven't looked hard enough yet, or something. I mean if it's leaking and you can smell it, it's obviously going someplace. Perhaps it's leaking onto something else and never making it to the ground, but in that case perhaps you should be looking for something that's unusually clean.

[XanderWiFi]

Is there some way that the engine could be getting flooded? Something unusually clean...I think it is in the engine bay. Wondering if I should replace the fuel regulator just in case.

[zzyzzx]

Wondering if I should replace the fuel regulator just in case.

Your beginning to sound like an auto mechanic! I prefer to test stuff and prove that it's bad before replacing it. I would think that you could do that on this car as well.

[XanderWiFi]

Hahaha sounds about right. I am inclined to agree with you, but it's gas...burny flammable blow you up stuff lol. So my urge to correct the problem burns pretty high. After driving it, it is so bad that it can be smelled in the garage, through the garage door, through the laundry room door and in the house. My wife moved the baby to a different room because she was worried about him smelling the fumes lol.

With fumes that potent though, there HAS to be a puddle somewhere but have yet to find a single one.

[kwhauck]

Hahaha sounds about right. I am inclined to agree with you, but it's gas...burny flammable blow you up stuff lol. So my urge to correct the problem burns pretty high. After driving it, it is so bad that it can be smelled in the garage, through the garage door, through the laundry room door and in the house. My wife moved the baby to a different room because she was worried about him smelling the fumes lol.

With fumes that potent though, there HAS to be a puddle somewhere but have yet to find a single one.

here's an idea, park it outside and not in the garage, until you figure it out. Don't risk your family.

[XanderWiFi]

I found the source of the leak. Turned the car on, let it run for a bit until I could smell it, then saw the little bell shaped part below the fuel was glossy and wet, touched it: GAS!

I am trying to post pictures but having a hard time resizing on the mac. It is bell shaped, underneath the spark plug wires and in front of the throttle body. Directly in the fuel line. Hopefully that paints a good enough picture to tell me what it is until I can get a picture up.

[AleroB888]

I've probably posted this before, but the only time I had an incident related to what you have there was at the track. The first symtoms were missing, poor performance, bad idling.

Then I had it parked in the pit area till it cooled. When I tried to start it, there was the strong smell of raw fuel around the car. Some guys immediately said "That's a stuck injector." Could be, but no leaks, puddles or anything to indicate where the fuel smell came from.

The car became harder to start, each time the raw fuel smell got worse, the missing got worse, and finally white mist of burning antifreeze came out of the exhaust pipe. Lucky for me Mike (N2-OLDS) had a trailer there and I was able to drive it on and off, and finally into my garage.

The trouble was a bad LIM gasket, and probably a stuck injector, but it was never clear exactly where the fuel exited the engine area. I suspect it made its way past the LIM somehow.

In any event, I took off the intake and found its leak, and replaced both the LIM gasket and the injectors, just to be safe.

[zzyzzx]

then saw the little bell shaped part below the fuel


It is bell shaped, underneath the spark plug wires and in front of the throttle body. Directly in the fuel line.

I am having trouble picturing whatever this is. Probably the fuel pressure regulator, but there is an O ring there as well. This particular O ring I remember fondly while doing a LIM job since they have this annoying tendancy to go flying and I had to do some reading here and finally found a pic of it (the brown O ring) after which I was able to easily find it (once I knew what I was looking for).

[zzyzzx]

I did find a picture of someone testing their fuel pressure level:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/lizzywiz/vacuum_3400.jpg

Whole thread is good:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/t674101.html

[zzyzzx]

Is this the part:

http://partimages.genpt.com/partimages//94264.jpg

http://partimages.genpt.com/partimages//473447.jpg

If so I'm still thinking more along the lines of a gasket problem there than the regulator itself. Unless it's rusted, or something.

[XanderWiFi]

It is something with the fuel pressure regulator. Leaking like a siv. Took it to the mechanic. Beyond a fuel filter, spark plugs and wires I do not really want to do gas too much. Not even sure if I have the parts and definitely do not have the time. Will post more as I find out the finer details.

[kwhauck]

It is really easy to put in a FPR, just get one from gm and do it yourself....

[XanderWiFi]

Time, time, time. Military giving me the shaft this week. 64 hour work week and I am on call today. I am able to punt, so I do.

[zzyzzx]

At least you are less likely to get bent over by the mechanic if you can point to the leak. When you report back include how much it cost.

[XanderWiFi]

estimated $225 to replace. The regulator itself was $95.

There are some electrical issues to deal with now though...

[zzyzzx]

estimated $225 to replace. The regulator itself was $95.

There are some electrical issues to deal with now though...

OK, so it cost you $225 + tax and nusiance fees and you have verified that there is no leak anymore, correct?

[XanderWiFi]

Still in the shop. With the regulator replaced, it still has the issue where it cranks but will not start. They are exploring some electrical issues and will get back to me when that is resolved.

Just 225$ total. Maybe cheaper if it was done quicker I was told.

Pretty crazy how it was hard to find. Only did because the engine was cool and it leaked then. Otherwise it just dries the gas and no one can know the better.

[XanderWiFi]

Leak resolved. Fuel pressure regulator is the source. Also proof that you can have leaks with no codes.

[zzyzzx]

Looks like I was right when I said that this wasn't related to the starting problems.