Milzy Motorsports or WOT-TECH?

[Mach1]

So, it's become obvious that my only two reliable choices in camshafts are milzy and wot-tech. Sooo, which would you guys prefer when the car has a stock 3400? I'm looking at the stage 1 cams from both companies.

Also, I've heard that LS1 and LS6 valvesprings will work with 3400's. Should I look into those, or should I choose something else? Also, will the LS springs require any machining to the heads?

I was planning on getting a tune some how, although i know that milzy states that their stage 1 cam will work with a stock tune.

Everything is stock on the car except for the SLP cat-back, and I figure that it might be pointless to purchase a larger TB since I don't have a ported UIM or LIM. Although, I would like to purchase the ported exhaust manifolds from milzy due to headers costing a fcking arm and a leg.

Basically, the point of this build is to keep the car as close to stock as possible while upping the power by a noticeable mark. That's why I'm looking at the stage 1 cams. The stock cam in the 3400 is too tame. I think it has something like .420 valve lift. The milzy and wot-tech have close to a .500 lift, which is a much nicer number. Plus, there is just enough lift so that I don't have to modify the stock heads.

I can't get on the wot-tech site now. Wtf?

[sleepyalero]

Slp catback? I want to see a video of it! my buddy has slp dual on his trans am and its hella loud I love it.

On to your question... I would recommend ls6 springs and better rods. I was planning on getting ported manifolds as well. I dis research comparing headers to em and from What I understand you get same amount of power but ported manifolds last longer then headers.

Between milzy and wot.. milzy seems to have alot more stuff like race block with forged internals, powder coated motors with Cam options, and a 4t65e tranny conversion kit with stronger internal options. Idk how good service is thru milzy or wot because I've never bought anything from them yet.

When I build my car I'm Probably going with milzy because they have alot more options for our cars it looks like. I'm not saying either company is bad! Just saying.

Also I don't think you need to fabricate anything for the Cam it should be just like an OEM Cam but with more power offered.

[xXManwhoreXx]

I don't know why you would reccomend rods the stock ones should surely suffice for such a mild build.

Anyways Ported exhaust manis may flow more but who knows... I would rather have headwork done first before I started worrying about something as limited in choices as the exhaust side.
As for the valve springs the ls6 springs seem to be the choice but you will need LSX valve seats as well. I'm not sure about retainers though. All and all I would go to Milzy to give a little more money in their pockets to actually keep releasing more things, since they seem to be the only ones actually trying.

[kwhauck]

It isn't even a close decision IMO, WOT-TECH all the way......you can always do a 3500 top end swap which flows better than a mildly ports 3400 upper end anyways....

[Mach1]

I do know that the wot-tech cam offers the higher lift of the 2 choices (not sure about duration...), and naturally I would go with the bigger cam. Unfortunately though, i can't get on wot's site. Soooo, they might be sol :lol:

And remember kwhauck...

We're keeping things basic here. No top end swaps! :p

[WhiteV6]

My site is up and running.

[Shiwnath]

Wasn't there another thread about this? NOT trying to start this up again, but from what I remember reading was that Ben knows his way around a flow bench.

[Mach1]

My site is up and running.

good. goooood...

[xXManwhoreXx]

Milzy > all

[mfuller]

I don't know why you would reccomend rods the stock ones should surely suffice for such a mild build.

Anyways Ported exhaust manis may flow more but who knows... I would rather have headwork done first before I started worrying about something as limited in choices as the exhaust side.
As for the valve springs the ls6 springs seem to be the choice but you will need LSX valve seats as well. I'm not sure about retainers though. All and all I would go to Milzy to give a little more money in their pockets to actually keep releasing more things, since they seem to be the only ones actually trying.

He probably means pushrods - custom length pushrods are recommended if not required with any performance camshaft.
It either takes one hell of a build or a something going very wrong to break a stock connecting rod.
Valve lift with the stock cam is .436" on both intake and exhaust.
Your valve springs will depend on what cam you choose.
Manley retainers and locks are of excellent quality.

[mfuller]

I do know that the wot-tech cam offers the higher lift of the 2 choices (not sure about duration...), and naturally I would go with the bigger cam. Unfortunately though, i can't get on wot's site. Soooo, they might be sol :lol:

And remember kwhauck...

We're keeping things basic here. No top end swaps! :p
For all the work of pulling the motor and the expense that comes with changing the cam, may I suggest just buying my motor? Everything's already done for you.....;)
http://www.aleromod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32874

[Mach1]

For all the work of pulling the motor and the expense that comes with changing the cam, may I suggest just buying my motor? Everything's already done for you.....;)
http://www.aleromod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32874

I'm just super attached to this one :lol:

Seriously tho... 3000 mile oil changes since new, all maintenance issues addressed, just really really well kept.

I'd lose a nut for this motor (and the car) if it were in danger. :p

So, basically it looks like i'll get...

(fr shur)
- Milzy stage 1 cam (I just checked and the wot-tech street cam is slightly tamer in lift and duration)
- LS6 springs
- LS1 seats (I' konw manwhore said LSX seats, but I think these are what he meant)
- LS1 valve stem seals

(maybee)
- longer pushrods (will the preload from the stock rods be enough, and will the difference in power between stock be enough to justify an extra $150?)
- Manley retainers and keepers (will stock retainers and keepers work for the LS6 springs? $10 versus $90)
- Complete cam install kit (will this be totally necessary or can I get away with the economy kit?)

And Idk why it dosent say, but if the wot tech street/strip cam works on stock heads, that'd be even better. I only bring it up because there is not much difference in the lift and duration from their street cam, which is usable with stock heads.

[Mach1]

and fcking wot tech's site is down again...:(

[xXManwhoreXx]

- LS1 seats (I' konw manwhore said LSX seats, but I think these are what he meant)

LSx means LS with a number so LS1 LS6 etc

- longer pushrods (will the preload from the stock rods be enough, and will the difference in power between stock be enough to justify an extra $150?)

As for power I don't see how it would change however since they are lightweight you take some strain from your valvetrain due to its lighter mass also I believe they are also adjustable therefore you can choose the lift you want out of them

[WhiteV6]

MMS and WOT-Tech are not lighter as far as pushrods go. As far as valvetrain goes, pushrod weight is not nearly the same factor as the weight on the other side of the rocker (valve, retainer, keepers). The stiffer the pushrod, the better. The lovely thing about 60v6s, is the incredibly short pushrod compared to just about every other pushrod engine.

I don't know why you say wot-tech is down, it hasn't been down for a long time. We are on the same server as 60degreev6.com. Check and see if that site is working.

[xXManwhoreXx]

Are the stock pushrods steel or what materiel?


and wot-tech is working fine

[Mach1]

Now wot tech is wrking fr me. but only if I use the link through 60degreev6. If I type in the address, I get an error page.

idk why it's f'd up (prob my internet) :rolleyes2:

so mainly the issue is...

- stock retainers and keepers versus manley.
- keep stock pushrods?
- will the wot tech street/strip cam work without head modifications like the street cam?

[kwhauck]

And remember kwhauck...

We're keeping things basic here. No top end swaps! :p

swapping top ends is more basic than a cam swap, especially if you are going to be changing valves springs and anything else, you might as well swap top ends then.......

but if you are going to do that much work, seriously you should buy matt's motor, and be done with it, that is the easiest and probably cheapest option..

[WhiteV6]

The only cams I sell that require head modification are the race/boost type, XFI lobe cams. You can run over .640 lift on stock heads with the right springs. The race cams need the stiffest spring I have, and those need the seat pressure lowered by increasing the install height. This is done by cutting the seat pockets down on the head. You can run the strip cam with the comp 26986 springs on an otherwise stock head.

Stock retainers and keepers are fine. Manley are closer tolerance, and lighter. The pushrods depend on the lifter preload. There is a difference between what can be ran, and what is best for performance. The mpg, street, and street/strip cam can easily be ran on the stock pushrods, but you will be .020 to .030" short on preload. This means you are giving up duration and lift.

So no matter what company you go with, you will need new pushrods for the best performance.

[kwhauck]

^^^ that is why you should go with WOT-TECH.....

[Mach1]

^^^ that is why you should go with WOT-TECH.....

lolol...


There's is nothing better than getting a big badass explanation from a guru...

Thank you whitev6!

and it looks like ur store will be getting some good "bidness" from me :lol:

so now the list is...

- street/strip cam from wot tech.
- LS6 springs
- LS1 valve seats
- LS1 valve stem seals
- new set of stock retainers and keepers
- longer pushrods (any recommended length whitev6?)
- kit with gaskets and shit for the swap lol (any suggestions?)

Doods, I fcking love u guys. I keep forgeting that I'm not the only one who has the ridiculous need to modify a car that never gets modified. :rolleyes2:

[WhiteV6]

The locks and keepers are used as far as stockers go on my store. They don't wear out so there is no reason to buy more. Pushrods, I measure the cam lobes every time to be sure on the lengths needed. Probably .020" longer.

The complete head install kit
http://wot-tech.com/shop/all/3400-head-gasket-kit/prod_114.html

and the side cover set
http://wot-tech.com/shop/all/completion-gasket-set/prod_258.html

Those 2 will give you everything you need for a cam install.

[mfuller]

Also remember that you will need to do some computer tuning for optimum performance.

[Mach1]

^very true^

[jackal2000]

That's one thing I didn't get right with MMS stage 2 cam, still have stock length pushrods. not sure how much power it's robbing me but the car has never come close to that grand am that ran a 13.99999 with basically the same mods.

[Mach1]

The locks and keepers are used as far as stockers go on my store. They don't wear out so there is no reason to buy more. Pushrods, I measure the cam lobes every time to be sure on the lengths needed. Probably .020" longer.

The complete head install kit
http://wot-tech.com/shop/all/3400-head-gasket-kit/prod_114.html

and the side cover set
http://wot-tech.com/shop/all/completion-gasket-set/prod_258.html

Those 2 will give you everything you need for a cam install.

Will new heads bolts be necessary? Or will the heads not have to be removed for the install? I only ask because you didn't bring them up.

[xXManwhoreXx]

If your having to ask these questions than I don't really think you are going to be able that far

[WhiteV6]

Yes, you will need new head bolts as well. It is easier to pull the heads to replace the springs, seats, and seals.

[Mach1]

I wanna be sure dammit! :lol:

.and what makes you think that I'm doing this all by myself.

I got an experienced mechanic by my side. (my chrissy poo)

Also, i noticed that the kit does not come with a timing chain. Milzy's complete cam intall kit includes one. However, it's short some of the seals. Question is, are all the seals in the wot head gasket necessary for the cam swap? Because if not, I could save a bit and use the milzy kit. So, instead of purchasing the wot kit and not using some of the gaskets and purchasing a seperate timing chain, I could just purchase the milzy kit. Thoughts?

[Mach1]

Yes, you will need new head bolts as well. It is easier to pull the heads to replace the springs, seats, and seals.

kk...

[WhiteV6]

$366 bucks for the MMS cam and head install kit. $230 for my head and cam install kit. My kit includes metal lower intake gaskets. I don't recommend plastic lower intake gaskets.

The MMS kit includes just a chain, no brand given. I sell the GM 1994-1999 chain kit with both gears for $145. $14 for the chain damper/guide. That's $390 vs $366 and you get a more complete kit with all of the best parts available across the board. All of the stock 00+ GM chains and all 94-present aftermarket chains stretch before 50k miles when using LS6 springs.

[JLw7123]

Go wit WOT they are real reliable you will not have any regrets buying from WOT and ya metal gaskets are the best the plastic ones will not last long also i would buy something that has a name brand than from some company that u never heard of. I am getting the 3500 competition LIM and UIM from them because they do quality work and have great customer service.

[xXManwhoreXx]

All of the stock 00+ GM chains and all 94-present aftermarket chains stretch before 50k miles when using LS6 springs.

Never heard that before.. good to know.

[Redog]

The main reason I go with Ben is for the customer service. The know-how and awesome parts are the icing on the cake :D

[Redog]

All of the stock 00+ GM chains and all 94-present aftermarket chains stretch before 50k miles when using LS6 springs.


Hopefully with the use of an aftermarket cam :eek: since I'm running LS6 springs on a stock cam. I was going to go with these springs on my build, but the Alero building gods strongly suggested the Comp springs. That will get switched at the rebuild.

What's better for a mild build? the 94-99 chain or the TCE double roller/crank kit?

[mfuller]

We're waiting on results of 1 person who had his pre-99 GM timing set cryo-treated - we'll see how it held up un his semi-large cam.
Anything with XFI lobes and stiff valve springs should use the TCE duble roller for durabilty.

[Mach1]

Omg this thread is becoming soo good.

Do you guys know how many things I've learned from this thread?

like... a lot... :lol:

[WhiteV6]

Right, with a cam on those LS6 springs. Its all part of the load against the chain that causes it to stretch. Now, I am not talking about it breaking, or even cause problems. It will eventually make a lot of noise, which is bad but thats past 50k miles. Also 50k is not every instance, some are less, some more. Most we will never actually know because it just moves the powerband higher (killing some low end torque, which is how you notice mostly).

Cryotreating should help, as it does on just about everything involved wear. Especially for cylinder walls and brake rotors:) I expect Jon's setup to work for a long time with the 94-99 crytreated chain.

I do my best to help everyone, customers and enthusiasts alike. Wish I had time to work on 60v6 but I am hoping this next year working with a partner will allow me to get some articles/instructions written.

[Redog]

How much would a Cryo job cost? and if it works, which you are 100% correct Ben, Cryotreating helps EVERYTHING although I never heard of it used on a TC.

[WhiteV6]

its cheaper in bulk per item, but I don't have a cost. I will have to see what is local to me after I move.

[MilzyZ34]

I believe it says all the parts are genuine GM, including the chain. We use GM lower intake gaskets, and never use Felpro's. I've re-done about 6 or so felpro'd intake gasket jobs here in the last 6 months. I've never used anything but GM and never had a single one come back.


$366 bucks for the MMS cam and head install kit. $230 for my head and cam install kit. My kit includes metal lower intake gaskets. I don't recommend plastic lower intake gaskets.

The MMS kit includes just a chain, no brand given. I sell the GM 1994-1999 chain kit with both gears for $145. $14 for the chain damper/guide. That's $390 vs $366 and you get a more complete kit with all of the best parts available across the board. All of the stock 00+ GM chains and all 94-present aftermarket chains stretch before 50k miles when using LS6 springs.


by the way, Tim's car that went 13.9 had stock length pushrods.

[WhiteV6]

Did you originally install those Felpro gaskets? We have been through this discussion on 60V6 with a GM tech that says the same thing. We both concluded that installation error will kill any lower intake gasket for these motors and since he wasn't the one to do the work, he could not verify it was not from over tightening them. Also, were the bolts coated with loctite? That is a known issue, for them to back out from vibration and cause leaks. This may have been the cause for some of the plastic gasket failures as well.

So the important part is correct installation with the loctite on the bolts.

What does lifter preload have to do with 1/4 mile times?

[AleroB888]

........ We use GM lower intake gaskets, and never use Felpro's. I've re-done about 6 or so felpro'd intake gasket jobs here in the last 6 months. I've never used anything but GM and never had a single one come back......

Let me understand this, you got six 3400 V6 cars in and all had a failed Felpro metal LIM gasket ? Were they boosted cars? Are the new GM LIM gaskets you install an upgrade from the original OEM gaskets?

When I went through the LIM install a few years ago, the Felpro metal LIM replacement kit impressed me as a superior product to the GM version. I had the two kits there side by side, and after comparing them out of the box, I returned the GMs. The Felpros were a more complete kit, as well.

I can't remember if I put loctite on the bolts... the parts man at the dealership recommended replacing the bolts, too. I also didn't torque the bolts correctly. It's hard to say for sure if any internal seepage is occuring, but I actually expect it since I've run over 9 lbs boost for a couple years now. I've certainly not had anything like the catastrophic failure of the original LIM gasket, though.

[WhiteV6]

The newer replacement bolts have the thread locker applied already. It is important to use the correct torque, even for boost. I wouldn't expect 9psi to be a problem for the intake gaskets.

GM has a 2nd revision, that puts metal tabs around the bolt hole near the coolant passage. This is to help prevent over torquing these bolts. Felpro has this revision as well for their plastic gaskets, but they still revised them again after that to give us the metal version.

[Redog]

Those GM gaskets suck.

I did have a set of Fel-Pro got bad on the LIM, however the shop that did the job put RTV around all the water jackets except the port where the leak occured.

If this problem where to happen and I had another car to get back and forth to work, I would have no problem doing this myself. After fixing a leaking injector I can see just how easy doing a LIMG is. You just have to move so much shit to get to it. The only 2 things that worry me is the pushrods and using RTV.

[MilzyZ34]

someone mentioned not being able to run the time that tim did, and stated they though their problem was their pushrods being too short.

i've never installed fel-pro gaskets on a 3400.

for the bolts, i just use the new bolts that GM supplies with the intake gasket kit.

[kwhauck]

someone mentioned not being able to run the time that tim did, and stated they though their problem was their pushrods being too short.


This

That's one thing I didn't get right with MMS stage 2 cam, still have stock length pushrods. not sure how much power it's robbing me but the car has never come close to that grand am that ran a 13.99999 with basically the same mods.

So what is his problem then, IYO

[widbyj]

If pushrods are too short you will not get proper lift/flow. Hydraulic lifters can only do so much, possibly not enough for this situation (plus they might not be working properly).

[kwhauck]

If pushrods are too short you will not get proper lift/flow. Hydraulic lifters can only do so much, possibly not enough for this situation (plus they might not be working properly).


I understand that........but......

I want to here Milzy's answer on why Jackal hasn't gone as fast.....

[MilzyZ34]

I understand that........but......

I want to here Milzy's answer on why Jackal hasn't gone as fast.....

what are his mods, and do you have a copy of the time slip?

[jackal2000]

what are his mods, and do you have a copy of the time slip?
I have your stage 2 cam and heads, your chromoly pushrods, 28lb/hr injectors, TOG headers, 2.5" cat back exhaust, ported manifolds, 62mm billet throttle body, under drive crank pulley, phenolic manifold spacer, cold air intake. car made 187whp and 187lb/ft and one time ran a 14.9 quarter mile at 93mph. all other passes have been 15+ seconds.

[MilzyZ34]

I have your stage 2 cam and heads, your chromoly pushrods, 28lb/hr injectors, TOG headers, 2.5" cat back exhaust, ported manifolds, 62mm billet throttle body, under drive crank pulley, phenolic manifold spacer, cold air intake. car made 187whp and 187lb/ft and one time ran a 14.9 quarter mile at 93mph. all other passes have been 15+ seconds.


throttle body is holding you back a little bit, even when i designed the stage 2 cam way back in winter 2004, I designed it for a 65mm tb, with the 65 flowing around 10% more than the 62. When we dyno cars over at Dynotune Motorsports in Columbus, the stage 2 cars almost always make the same numbers. a 65mm tb'd stage 2 package car will make 195-200+ whp with stock exhaust manifolds. headers usually add around 10-15whp or so, depending what they are. 187 with headers sounds low. Have you done a compression test? what plugs are you running? gap? what pcm?

as for the slip, I was looking for numbers like 1/8ET and mph, 60ft time, etc.

not sure where you're located, but if you wanted to bring your car into the shop, I'm sure we could find the problem and have your car running a whole lot better.

[jackal2000]

dayton is a long way from dc, but could possibly make a weekend trip in the spring. i am fairly certain a compression test was done after the motor was assembled in september 2006 and the results were normal. plugs are ac delco iridium 1 range colder than stock, gapped at .045. i have been tuning the pcm with dhp equipment. sprucegagt helped me out initially and i have had 2 experienced tuners tweak it over the years. i have had no trouble at all with the motor, it runs strong i just never got the results i wanted.

and i misspoke earlier, it did run a 14.9 twice. the middle slip has troubled me since it was handed to me after the run. i know i did not let off the throttle early, and the fact that it never went that fast again kinda backs that up.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7479/timeslip023hb5.jpg

[Lucalare]

I don't get it, it looks like the middle slip should have been the fastest quarter mile, not the slowest. Maybe the other two screwed up?

[MilzyZ34]

yeah, that middle slip looks out of place. That's a very good 60 ft for a n-body car, and honestly, i think you'd need atleast drag radials to do that well of a 60ft. If I had to guess, I'd say it looks like someone else's run. I could be wrong, but it's so much better of a launch, that you should have went around 14.0-14.25 on that one.

I know DC is a long way from here, but I know we'd figure the problem out if you wanted to bring it in. Otherwise, if you wanted to I could have you do some tests, and based off that info and hopefully you could have access to a wide-band, I could figure out the problem and send you a pcm or something if that's the issue.

[xXManwhoreXx]

Have you done a compression test? what plugs are you running? gap? what pcm?

This.

Are you sure you timing is dead on. It could be off a tooth and run fine but be a big damper on your overall power.

Though it is less likely you be blowing out the spark, with the intake manis and colder air the air is much denser. What are you gapped to? Just two things to look for.

[kwhauck]

This.

Are you sure you timing is dead on. It could be off a tooth and run fine but be a big damper on your overall power.

Though it is less likely you be blowing out the spark, with the intake manis and colder air the air is much denser. What are you gapped to? Just two things to look for.

read above skimmer....

[xXManwhoreXx]

:(

Well shoot what about blowing out spark than

[jackal2000]

the car only has random misfires at idle due to the cam. as soon the throttle opens it smooths out. why should i think the spark is blowing out if the car is not missing?

[mfuller]

Sorry for askng the obvious jackal, but have you scanned your car?
I recall it sounded pretty healthy at ASS a few years back, but any KR?

[jackal2000]

Sorry for askng the obvious jackal, but have you scanned your car?
I recall it sounded pretty healthy at ASS a few years back, but any KR?

it's been a while since I scanned it. I remember seeing a small amount of kr (no more than 2*) during those runs I posted but that was many tunes and years ago. the most recent dyno tune (this past spring IIRC) showed no kr and unfortunately I haven't been back to the track. I think we ended up adding 2-3* of timing at WOT. it is very possible that more power could be squeezed out of the motor via tuning, but I have exhausted my local resources in that department. I don't have a wideband o2 installed on it so there is only so much tuning I can do on the road. Mitch and Ken witnessed the car at raceway park in late 2009. It ran 15.2's all day.

In March I'll be selling the car to my little brother who lives in northeast Ohio so I may split the cost of having him bring the car down to Dayton so Mike can take a look at it.

[MMGT1]

I got 5 bucks says your trans tune holds the key to the extra second you are falling short of. Without seeing it that is just a guess, but I bet ya dollars to donuts that I'm not far off the mark.
Now if your manual, I'd like to see how your torque tables are set up and if the proper DTC's have been removed from your tune. I'd expect a 14.3-14.2 from your build at around 98mph. If you have HP Tuners I could shoot you a couple of different tunes to try out

[MilzyZ34]

I got 5 bucks says your trans tune holds the key to the extra second you are falling short of. Without seeing it that is just a guess, but I bet ya dollars to donuts that I'm not far off the mark.
Now if your manual, I'd like to see how your torque tables are set up and if the proper DTC's have been removed from your tune. I'd expect a 14.3-14.2 from your build at around 98mph. If you have HP Tuners I could shoot you a couple of different tunes to try out


or could be a slipping trans too.

how big of a shovel did you need to dig this one up Paul?

[MMGT1]

killin time waiting for summer to come back bud! hahaha yea, I saw the date

[jackal2000]

The motor blew up a couple months after I gave the car to my brother so early 2012. Not sure what happened, but I heard something about sheared spark plugs. I have been trying to get the car back from him, but he has not answered me lol

[mfuller]

I think I may need to have Paul fly down here in a few months for on-site tuning.

[tw0123]

^^ I can attest to the tuning abilities... he got my tune to snap my 20's and a nice bit of wheels spin, with minor (in comparison) engine mods!!! I highly recommend him :)