Full EGR delete question

[bkathsalero]

So My egr tube has a hole in it. The tube is 78.00 So I'm saying screw it I'll just delete my egr. My plans are to block the hole out of the manifold. And put a restriction plate between the egr and the manifold, and then unplug the egr. I know I will then gain a check engine light, no worry's theres no check engine light bulb :lol: SO my question is if anyone else has any other type of egr delete kit. And if they have engine ping at all. or any negatives about it. And I know all the benifits of it lower intake temp.. etc etc. I'm not caring about performance. Im trying to be cheap :lol:

[guiguilandry]

The main purpose of the egr is to lower combustion temperature to reduce the NOx emissions... by introducing a little of burned gas to the mix of fresh air and gas....... your car will pollute more if you remove it but it won't affect driveability at all because 70% of the time the egr is closed anyway... and nobody never notice when it opens... except if it fails and open like at idle and makes the car stalls...

[Redog]

I heard 2 things about ERG blocking and I don't know if they are true. Maybe somebody can chime in on it:

1 No EGR equals much lower MPG's

2 No EGR equals a lot of power

Confused:wacko:

[heineck]

so it'll run rich then?

[mfuller]

Okay....the EGR does serve to lower emissions a bit. It does this by re-routing unburnt hydrocarbons in your exhaust back into the intake manifold.

To address Ken's questions:

1. Your MPG will decrease slightly (1 or 2 MPG).

2. You will notice litttle (if any) increase in performance. This is because the EGR valve is open and re-circulating only at idle and cruise, not at WOT.

[SouthDakotAlero]

Okay....the EGR does serve to lower emissions a bit. It does this by re-routing unburnt hydrocarbons in your exhaust back into the intake manifold.

To address Ken's questions:

1. Your MPG will decrease slightly (1 or 2 MPG).

2. You will notice litttle (if any) increase in performance. This is because the EGR valve is open and re-circulating only at idle and cruise, not at WOT.

Exactly. It keeps your intake manifold a hell of a lot cleaner as well. That is the main reason most Lightning owners do it.

[bkathsalero]

From what I hear the only performance aspect of it is that you keep intake air cooler because you don't have the 1000+ degree exhaust air entering. And like said I know it does not make a difference at wot, and thats usually the point of time your looking for power:lol:

[-Alero-]

From what I hear the only performance aspect of it is that you keep intake air cooler because you don't have the 1000+ degree exhaust air entering. And like said I know it does not make a difference at wot, and thats usually the point of time your looking for power:lol:


right, it wont heat soak as quickly, and you will be able to maintain a lower intake charge temperature.

mpg should go down more than just 1 or 2, if you have a cai, because the air isnt heated up nearly as much in the intake plenum, so when your car detects cooler it it delivers more fuel to compensate.

so in essence you do run a little buit more rich for average driving.

but in my opinion having a oil catch and EGR delete = clean intake ports in your manifolds as well as cylinder head.

[WhiteV6]

I have NEVER seen lower MPG from no EGR. Consider this. The EGR pollutes the combustion chamber and builds up on the back of the intake valve. This build up lowers flow and absorbs some fuel it passes through. If you run seafoam or GM Top Engine Cleaner through the manifolds and follow the directions, the valves will be clean and you will see improved efficiency with the EGR off.

You will see no power increase from simply disabling the EGR. You must clean up the crap that has built up first and then you might see the difference.

[-Alero-]

lol gm engineering

hay at least you get some gold flake in there eh?

[bkathsalero]

Thanks ben, And yes EVERYTHING IS CLEAN!! I have 2.6 miles on the new heads, and cleaned the manifolds when off. Noticed the egr leak and parked it.

I'm happy with +power -power +mpg -mpg I don't care as long as theres no engine ping as the old timer at my shop told me I would get. This is me being cheap on the almost last part the car needs:lol: I've decided to be cheap after throwing almost 3500 bucks at the car

[DOHC_tuner]

Good topic

[WhiteV6]

You should disable the EGR in the computer for the best setup, but it won't knock or ping or blow shit up. Emissions devices are not necessary for engine operation, and are programmed as such.

[bkathsalero]

Thats what I wanted to hear!!

[BlackJack]

right, it wont heat soak as quickly, and you will be able to maintain a lower intake charge temperature.

mpg should go down more than just 1 or 2, if you have a cai, because the air isnt heated up nearly as much in the intake plenum, so when your car detects cooler it it delivers more fuel to compensate.

so in essence you do run a little buit more rich for average driving.


While your theory about a lower intake charge temp makes sense, your car "detects cooler" doesn't jive.

The IAT sensor is upstream of the manifold, usually located prior to the TB, the air temp sensor picks up temp well before the manifold, thus, changes in the manifold temp should not directly effect the fuel delivery. The only thing that shy of the IAT, MAP, and MAF that will have an effect on fuel delivery after the TB is your O2 readings after the mixture is already burned.

The charge density will increase with the cooler manifold temp, but your fuel quantity has already been calculated based on IAT(pre-manifold)/MAP/MAF/O2 up to that point. It will be slightly skewed and probably a little on the lean side based on existing calibrations in the fuel tables designed to work with original equipment and conditions. The O2 readings will shift the tables to enrich the mixture because of detecting the lean condition. Not because of "detecting cooler".

Same end result, but for a different reason. Together, we can find the answer!

Fuel calculations are as such (put basically):
Injector Pulse Width sets the base fuel delivery vs. MAP scale
MAP vs. RPM = major calculation
MAF signal = medium calculation
IAT, O2, Coolant temp = fine-tune (along with a couple of other parameters)

I was in a hurry when I jammed this out, so somebody point it out if I omitted an important detail.

Bottom line, just make sure you pull your EGR blocking plate and reconnect everything prior to vehicle inspection. While you may not have a CES or SES, your PCM will still throw the code, and the inspection stations that have an OBDII scanner will catch it. To get rid of the code, you have to disable reporting of those codes in the PCM, and that will require a PCM reflash. If you order a custom PCM or get one of the two tuners out there, you can ask them to turn off the reporting of certain codes.

Check with Ben at WOT-Tech. I think he has EGR blocking plates.

[WhiteV6]

Yes, I have the plates to block off the EGR.

The ignition timing changes based on EGR % on OBD1. We don't have nearly the code to check out on OBD2 to know what the specifics are.

[bkathsalero]

Bottom line, just make sure you pull your EGR blocking plate and reconnect everything prior to vehicle inspection. While you may not have a CES or SES, your PCM will still throw the code, and the inspection stations that have an OBDII scanner will catch it. To get rid of the code, you have to disable reporting of those codes in the PCM, and that will require a PCM reflash. If you order a custom PCM or get one of the two tuners out there, you can ask them to turn off the reporting of certain codes.


We have no vehicle inspections in MN

[Redog]

^^ You know you say that, but usually if it's in there from the factory, it has to be in there.

You take the car to a shop and it's not in there, you may get in some trouble

[bkathsalero]

I work at an ASE certified shop. Gm master techs, all the shinanigans. MN is very lenient with pollution. I was running no cat for awhile and was only getting noise complaint, cops would ask "what did you do cut the cat out, I'd say yea, They would look at me like I'm a retarded kid and tell me to fix it" I also have mismatching vins between the vin plate and pcm. The gm dealership I went to my second time told me to make a note by the door sticker with the vehicle's info saying Pcm does not match body.

[WhiteV6]

I just put a cat on my 92 grand prix car cause it was a track car before and the previous owner didnt run one. So much better now. There is simply no excuse not to run a cat on a street vehicle. Emissions are more than government/state regulations. It is the air we breathe and have to live with. The EGR is not necessary for clean air, but the cat is.

[BlackJack]

So, since you brought that subject up Ben, what kind of cat and muffler combo would you recommend in a single exhaust that won't restrict the flow if you're trying to push over 600hp?

[kwhauck]

don't forget primary size for custom headers and exhaust size into the question....

[bkathsalero]

I was diagnosing a plugged cat, then fell into a side motor r&r job so between that and work didn't have time to re-install it. Had it off for a whole work week

[WhiteV6]

Magnaflow have some spun cats. I may use one for a resonator, but for 600hp, I am thinking 3" min diameter. Turbos love larger exhaust side tubing but I am not sure 3.5 or 4" would be necessary. On the primary side, I would guess about 1 5/8" still for velocity but then again, 100hp per hole is a lot of flow. 1 3/4 might prove better at 4000+ and making big numbers.

Mufflers however, no idea. I go for sound and like flowmaster. I know they aren't the best flowing design but the best flowing are also louder. Might need to compromise there.

[-Alero-]

well hey blackjack if you want to get that critical with IAT wouldnt the IAT position be even more critical? if the IAT is in its stockish area, with heat soak, heat expands and spreads through the aluminum manifolds, so in "theroy" as you said, heat could just eventually start soaking the intake plumbing where the IAT is, right? in my opinion thats what happens in a stock situation.

but of course you can relocate the IAT all the way up to the front bumper if you wanted, its still a method for reading the emperature, just in a cooler spot. so i agree with you completly on how big a factor that all is.

also what i forgot to mention was, running a richer a/f would lead to lower combustion temperatures would it not?

[BlackJack]

well hey blackjack if you want to get that critical with IAT wouldnt the IAT position be even more critical? if the IAT is in its stockish area, with heat soak, heat expands and spreads through the aluminum manifolds, so in "theroy" as you said, heat could just eventually start soaking the intake plumbing where the IAT is, right? in my opinion thats what happens in a stock situation.

but of course you can relocate the IAT all the way up to the front bumper if you wanted, its still a method for reading the emperature, just in a cooler spot. so i agree with you completly on how big a factor that all is.

also what i forgot to mention was, running a richer a/f would lead to lower combustion temperatures would it not?

Heat soak in a stock intake system isn't as much of an issue, since the majority of the plumbing up to the TB is plastic/rubber compound. Where you would experience more heat soak in the primary would be for those running metal CAI/WAI's.

Running a little richer does run a little cooler, but too much will also get hotter again, and eventually it will foul the plugs faster as well, not to mention the excess carbon buildup in the combustion chamber. Case in point, when I was working on getting tuned and was set too rich, you should have seen the flames shooting out of my exhaust pipe, since there was nothing to suppress it.