N/A Engine upgrades.

[Th0r]

After a weekend of cruising 700miles with some friends, I've decided my car needs to be faster. At the moment I'm stock with a WAI and 50 wet shot.

I've made use of the search function, but I still have some questions.

It seems that secret cams are the most cost effective upgrade, but how much of a pain in the ass is swapping in both 2.3L HO cams? I couldn't really find that much info on the procedure. I understand I'd lose power steering, but I could live with that.

Factoring in only a PnP on the head, port matched intake/header, cat-back, and cams, is the 2.3L manifold really that much of an upgrade? 2-3 hp with a reduction in torque doesn't seem worth the hassle of getting that thing to fit.

And final question, what if I just drop a 2.3L head on my car? Would I be looking at a re-routing/fittiment nightmare? If it's not too bad I'd like to go that route since I could get the manifold to bolt right up.

[Th0r]

No one? You all closed the thread after the "50 wet shot" part, didn't you? :|

[jayson_waltz]

http://sites.google.com/site/aleromodupgrades/performance

[KenshinZero]

Sorry to thred jesus, but this seemed like tha place to ask. What would the best injectors be to use on a N/A build?

[[ion] C2]

You size injectors based on what power you're making.. as long as they stay under 80% duty cycle (how long they stay open per revolution) it's fine. N/A or boost, doesn't matter. I use 378cc (36lb) right now and they're kinda maxed out already...

[KenshinZero]

Im thinking trying to get 200 bhp at least, would it be better to just upgrade the fuel punp and add more pressure?

[[ion] C2]

no that's a terrible way to do it lol

[AlbinoMonkeyRat]

don't do that without beefing up internals and making it breath better.

[KenshinZero]

ok so dont up the fuel pressure, until internals are built up, and it breaths better. Im glad i asked befor i just went out and did it.

[AlbinoMonkeyRat]

lol beefing up the internals and the intake and exhaust might get you close to 200hp without messing with the fuel system. if you're really all about that number, test it at every noticeable upgrade

[[ion] C2]

ok so dont up the fuel pressure, until internals are built up, and it breaths better. Im glad i asked befor i just went out and did it.

no.. don't up the fuel pressure because there's no reason to do that... you use bigger injectors and actually tune it rather than jacking it all up by changing fuel pressure.. and the only reason you need bigger injectors is if they can't put out enough fuel to maintain the air/fuel ratios you're targeting.

it's not like adding fuel is a standalone mod that somehow makes power, it's just what you do when the car makes more power and needs more fuel to compensate

[jayson_waltz]

yep like ion has been saying, don't just crank the pressure. get a sensor to monitor your a\f ratio if it changes from the ideal (14.6 i think but don't quote me on that) after adding mods, tune so it gets back to where it is supposed to be.

[KenshinZero]

Ok, i got it now, i miss understood.

[Cliff8928]

You can raise the pressure. It has benefits and drawbacks though. You will get better fuel atomization, but with more strain on the pump. Either way, any modification to add more fuel should also go hand in hand with some revised computer tuning.

Here's some good reading on fuel pressure and how it affects your flow rates..

http://www.msdfuelinjection.com/fuel_pressure.html

[KenshinZero]

Thanks, I cant see the charts at work though, lol

[Spilner521]

ok so dont up the fuel pressure, until internals are built up, and it breaths better. Im glad i asked befor i just went out and did it.
Like Ion said, don't up the fuel pressure to add more fuel. If you're sticking with N/A, you won't need any more fuel than the stock injectors can provide unless you're going all out N/A with aggressive cams and race ported head. And you also won't need to beef up the internals at all. If anything, you could swap the pistons for higher compression, but it's not a backyard job.

If I were to stay N/A with the LD9, I'd go with a ported head, cams, port matched stock intake manifold and CAI, header and header-back exhaust, a bigger throttle body and optimised air/fuel ratios and ignition timing with HPTuners.


I'll answer the first guy's question since no one ever did

It seems that secret cams are the most cost effective upgrade, but how much of a pain in the ass is swapping in both 2.3L HO cams? I couldn't really find that much info on the procedure. I understand I'd lose power steering, but I could live with that.
With the actual "secret" cams, the intake cam isn't a true HO cam and will still have the hex drive so you don't lose power steering. It would be a straight forward cam swap. How easy it would be depends on how mechanically inclined you are.

Factoring in only a PnP on the head, port matched intake/header, cat-back, and cams, is the 2.3L manifold really that much of an upgrade? 2-3 hp with a reduction in torque doesn't seem worth the hassle of getting that thing to fit.
It would help more with all those mods as opposed to just having an intake, header, and exhaust. It still isn't port matched though, so you'll need to have a spacer that matches the ports from the manifold to the ports from the head. If it was me with the mods you listed, I'd port match the stock manifold, go with a bigger throttle body and call it a day.

And final question, what if I just drop a 2.3L head on my car? Would I be looking at a re-routing/fittiment nightmare? If it's not too bad I'd like to go that route since I could get the manifold to bolt right up.
It wouldn't be worth it just to have the HO manifold. Having the stock manifold port matched to a ported stock head would give you comparable results with a lot less time, effort and money.

[Redog]

50 shot on a stock motor? Yeah that won't last long.

There is always headers, full exhaust, and the cams on a 2.4 shouldn't be hard to do since they are overhead.

New PCM would also do wonders, if it's programed right ;)

[AJules]

50 shot on a stock motor? Yeah that won't last long.


I thought the rule of thumb for nitrous on a stock motor was no more than 1/3 the stock horsepower at the crank? So 50 should be safe on a 150 horsepower?

Also, shouldn't it not be much of a problem because unlike other power adders, it's not in use whenever your motor is on, but only when you're at the track.

[Cliff8928]

50 shot shouldn't be bad on a 2.4. After all, it's a wet shot too.. that makes a big difference.

I'm not sure on the 2.4, but I'd be willing to bet the Ecotec tuned properly would be able to hold up to a 75 shot or so. It took GM adding 115 HP via nitrous and 28 HP from some better flowing parts to have it fail

[[ion] C2]

50 shot on a stock motor? Yeah that won't last long.
:lol:

Many have run 75-100 stock without any issue. It's not the nitrous that's the problem, it's the increased horsepower and torque output that the connecting rods can't handle. Well, nitrous in its nature as a power adder tends to be more violent than an equally powered boosted application, but still, a 50's perfectly fine as long as the system has its failsafes set up correctly. Wet shot or direct port, low fuel pressure nitrous cut off, WOT activation switch, blowdown tube/relief valve, bottle heater set to maintain the correct pressure, etc.

There is always headers
how many do we have lol

[AlbinoMonkeyRat]

lol 1

[Th0r]

It would help more with all those mods as opposed to just having an intake, header, and exhaust. It still isn't port matched though, so you'll need to have a spacer that matches the ports from the manifold to the ports from the head. If it was me with the mods you listed, I'd port match the stock manifold, go with a bigger throttle body and call it a day.
Thanks for your response, Spliner. Sounds like I'll pass on the HO manifold. All I need is a larger TB then. I managed to get the cams from a salvage yard my auto shop deals with, and have the ported head, header, and CIA ready to go. Now I just need to stop being so damn lazy. :p

50 shot on a stock motor? Yeah that won't last long.

There is always headers, full exhaust, and the cams on a 2.4 shouldn't be hard to do since they are overhead.

New PCM would also do wonders, if it's programed right ;)

It hasn't given me any issues as of yet. *Knock on wood*
If it blows, I'm sure that will finally give me the motivation to pull and rebuild it stronger like I had always planned. haha.

Mind explaining the PCM/programming thingy to me? I'm mechanically inclined, but not so great with the electrical stuff.

[Spilner521]

It hasn't given me any issues as of yet. *Knock on wood*
If it blows, I'm sure that will finally give me the motivation to pull and rebuild it stronger like I had always planned. haha.

Mind explaining the PCM/programming thingy to me? I'm mechanically inclined, but not so great with the electrical stuff.
50 wet shot is nothing. Your engine will hold up forever with your mods and a 50 shot. Don't worry about what other people tell you.

For PCM tuning you'll need the HPTuners software and you'll be able to optimize the fuel trims and ignition timing to extract the most power out of your engine. With the P&P head, cams, and everything else you have, your mods are pretty extensive in addition to the 50 shot, so a tune would be pretty beneficial and probably add a good amount of power to your setup.