Twincharging...

[NickAlero2000]

I'm thinking about doing this next summer, along with a manual swap and a LOT of engine work. I need everyones help, but please don't post opinions, I've been debating this since early January, and am deciding to have it as my project next summer (ALL SUMMER...I'm betting my car will be out of commission at least a month and a half, I'm giving myself time so I don't mess anything up).
Theres still a lot I'm unsure about here, a low mileage bottom end built engine is a must, the manual tranny swap I've wanted to do for a while will be done at this time as well.
Should everything in my life go according to plan this year (BIG if), I will have a budget of $8,000. Yes I know that gets me a nicer used car, but this will be more fun! :) (and give me more horsepower)
I'm saying it this early because I want to do the build right; I want to know everything that can happen/go wrong. I want to know EVERY SINGLE FACTOR that will need to be put into this and come out of this.
By the time this thread dies, I hope to have a long "Parts to buy" list and costs of everything so I can prepare for the summer.
I'm hoping, with your help, to make this happen. Thanks in advance guys.

I AM NO LONGER TWINCHARGING I AM TURBOCHARGING...JUMP TO PAGE 7

[Vinalero]

The first thing you have to know is that YOU WILL be out of budget. No matter what you calculate, theres always something you wont think of.

Start Gathering your parts early, if you have some room.

The supercharge Alone cost me around 2300 installed with everything paid and I installed it myself. Count another 2500 (realistic price) for your turbo set-up and you are already at almost 5000 bucks. Now count the manual tranny, clutch, cables and pedal, center console and EVERY things you need for the swap. My guess is that would cost around 1000 if you do the work yourself. That makes 6000. Low mileage bottom end, forged pistons, crank, stronger valves and spring, + all the extra you'll need for the engine alone. Maybe your water pump is going bad and you'll notice there or maybe its your oil pump. You never know. I would think you are already near the 8000$ and I didnt even count the exhaust set up.

That is being realistic for prices, I'm sure someone will come and say that, counting all the parts, he can get lower than that. Of course! But you always have to put some extra per part. It would probly be over 8000 if something goes wrong. Lets say you bent the fuel rail, or you short your pcm while tuning or "put anything that comes to your mind here".

With all the parts involved, theres a lot of issues that could happen.

Best advice would be to take your time.

Other than that, I would love to see that kind of project seeing the light :)

[bizarre179]

Wow, that is a serious project. And by serious, I mean probably one of the largest Alero projects known to man. I have no actual information to input but I would really like to say kudos to you if it is even attempted. No doubt there will be people saying it wont happen, or people making fun of you for even thinking it, but f-them. You gotta dream big if you wanna do something as big as this.

Best of luck, and I also would really like to see it happen.:thumb:

[Midgear]

whatever you want to do, and whatever you think is possible- DO IT

dont let anyone tell you otherwise.. "omg what a waste of money.. it's never going to work" fug' that.

Can't wait to see this get under way!

[[ion] C2]

You have the LD9. Of course it's possible. In fact, it's been done, a few times (on j-bodies). Guy with the MP45 plus turbo made 240whp on 7 PSI. Says it runs and feels awesome.

The best setup is one that uses a supercharger like the MP62 and it can be bypassed once the turbo spools. That's how *real* twincharging setups work. I started on the Twincharging page a while ago on Aleromod Upgrades but never got around to it.

[JOEY GLADSTONE]

lol a month?

[[ion] C2]

lol a month.

[Midgear]

these from an old thread-

Here's pics of the twin charged 2.4 on Jbody.org. It's a pretty sick setup:

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7161/twincharged1rh5.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/7858/twincharged2ai4.jpg

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/4471/twincharged3dm4.jpg

Although twin charging can be done with some success, I'd much rather use just a turbo. It's a common myth that turbos always have all kinds of lag. When you properly match the size of the turbo to your engine, there will be almost no lag and you'll still have more power potential than you need, especially when using a ball bearing turbo. It's when you start matching 800hp turbos to 1.8L engines that you'll see a lot of lag.

Twin turbo and Bi turbo are the same thing, where two of the same size turbos are used and each one gets its own bank of cylinders to feed it. Sequential twin turbo is when a small turbo is used to spool a large turbo. Sometimes they will each have their own bank of cylinders, sometimes the exhaust will run through the small one and then through the large one. The most complicated version is when exhaust is routed through the small turbo and then at a certain boost pressure a valve opens and allows exhaust to flow to the large turbo, even though they're both mated to the same exhaust manifold.


His original car (blue Sunfire) made 240whp on 7psi twin charged, then his new car (silver Sunfire) with a different engine made 248whp at 11psi with the same twin charged setup that he swapped over. Those pics up top are of his new setup on a fully built engine.

I'm not sure I agree with you that twin charging is more efficient, but it's certainly a way to get good response from a big, laggy turbo. Like you mentioned, this setup would be most efficient if the supercharger could be completely bypassed once the turbo is spooled.

This has got to be my favorite twin-charged setup..

http://www.hilmersson-racing.com/bilder/Bildgalleri/Galleri18.jpg

16v Volvo 2.3 with a GT40 and M62 churning out 578HP and 505 Ft-lbs!

The car (Opel Manta) runs a 10.52

[spyhunter]

twin charging = boo.

GT30R = easy 400+hp with good tune, good fueling, well built 2.4L

[Midgear]

twin charging = boo.

GT30R = easy 400+hp with good tune, good fueling, well built 2.4L


I'd do it for the wow factor and to show it off.. compared to a regular single turbo setup--

if I had the money :p

[natedawg9640]

Twin turbo and Bi turbo are the same thing, where two of the same size turbos are used and each one gets its own bank of cylinders to feed it. Sequential twin turbo is when a small turbo is used to spool a large turbo.

not entirely true... i was under the impression that a bi-turbo setup (as seen in some maseratis) was one small turbo feeding a larger one...and then shutting down when not needed...

sequential twin turbo setup uses the same sized turbos... but only one spools until the other is needed...
and parallel twin turbos both feed the same.

?

[Midgear]

where is the boost guru when you need him.. (blackjack)

[NickAlero2000]

lol yea...
I need exhaust size feedback to...i know the Pacesetter 2.5'' wont cut it when i'm at high boost...I'm thinkin custom 3'' to 3.5'' exhaust...
opinions?

[natedawg9640]

3 should be fine

[deathwish666]

props to the "thinking ahead of time" thing

good luck and keep us all posted

[spyhunter]

lol yea...
I need exhaust size feedback to...i know the Pacesetter 2.5'' wont cut it when i'm at high boost...I'm thinkin custom 3'' to 3.5'' exhaust...
opinions?

want to buy my 3inch exhaust?

[spyhunter]

oh on that twin charged setup. Dumping wastegate back into the exhaust = ghey. Nothing's better then scaring the shit out of someone with the rediculous cacophony of your wastegate opening up and dumping out into the atmosphere.

Then people get a clue they're screwed.

[natedawg9640]

unless the setup works better with full recirculation... like my subie for example... where if its a full atmouspheric dump it casue the AFRs to go berserk... and therefore is ill advised and detrimental to performance.

[NickAlero2000]

im interested in that exhaust...pm me some details and how much u want for it....thanks :)

[kwhauck]

good luck, but like spy said for big power on your budget go with a single turbo.....

[Cliff8928]

oh on that twin charged setup. Dumping wastegate back into the exhaust = ghey. Nothing's better then scaring the shit out of someone with the rediculous cacophony of your wastegate opening up and dumping out into the atmosphere.

Then people get a clue they're screwed.

unless the setup works better with full recirculation... like my subie for example... where if its a full atmouspheric dump it casue the AFRs to go berserk... and therefore is ill advised and detrimental to performance.

Uhh, I think you're confusing the wastegate and the blow-off (compressor bypass) valve.

[natedawg9640]

guilty as charged... i guess i skimmed a bit of that post... the general vibe of the post led me to assume he was talikin about a BOV

[spyhunter]

guilty as charged... i guess i skimmed a bit of that post... the general vibe of the post led me to assume he was talikin about a BOV

far from it. and my BOV vents to atmosphere also... then again I'm not using a maf.

[Cliff8928]

far from it. and my BOV vents to atmosphere also... then again I'm not using a maf.

None of the 4-cylinder N-bodies have a MAF either (all the generations).

[spyhunter]

None of the 4-cylinder N-bodies have a MAF either (all the generations).

coulda told you that.

[Midgear]

you people and late responses lol..

[Redog]

The best advice I can give is gather parts early. There is nothing wrong with buying all the parts even a few years in advance.

Makes the rebuild a bit easier to deal with ;)

[Spilner521]

^^Now that right there is good advice :thumb:

[NickAlero2000]

no such thing as late responses here...if the thread has died by the time i actually do it then ill bring it back from the dead right before i start....
picked up an intercooler last week too
ill toss the specs up eventually
and i got a junkyard Saab 9-3 Turbo just to mess around with...its broken but i want to get to know what ill be working with a little better...
keep it comin guys!

[spyhunter]

So You Couldn't Buy My Goddamn Intercooler?

Thanks Thanks A Lot.

How Many People Have Told Me They'd Pick Up My Intercooler That's For Sale. But Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[[ion] C2]

what a bastard

[NickAlero2000]

oh s#^t spy i completely forgot, so yes, i am a bastard for that, sorry :(
i still may want ur 3'' exhaust in a few weeks though :)
the intercooler was in a junkyard on an old Mitsubishi 3000GT, its a Blitz front mount, idk how reliable these are but it was $20 with the busted turbo so i got it...
if its busted or something is wrong with it (or it just plain sucks)...
then I WILL BUY SPY's INTERCOOLER!!!

[[ion] C2]

Lol..

K. So with this setup, you're going to need a good hunk of money. Tuning is the essential part. It's somewhat hard to tune a twincharged setup, supposedly. I wouldn't think so. But I'd tell you to take it to a place that KNOWS HPTuners and let them tune it, might cost a bit. Get the GM reflash as a base, then it can be modified and tuned further for the whole setup using HPTuners. You should use 550cc RC Engineering injectors, at least. You could even put them in rather than the 310cc injectors that come with the kit right off the bat. The stock supercharger reflash is available online, and I have it (assuming you have an auto, although I'm quite sure you can flash it to a manual setup IIRC), and all you'd need to change is the injector constant, which I can give you the correct one if you're unsure. It's a simple calculation.

Then it'd run just like normal but at a far less duty cycle and with much room to grow. After you have the MP45 kit all up and running is when I'd start working on the turbocharger side of things. I don't know much about turbo naming/sizing conventions but you should be able to get away with quite a decently sized one since the supercharger will be the aiding factor in getting it spooled quickly.

3" full exhaust definitely.

[AleroB888]

...
if its busted or something is wrong with it (or it just plain sucks)...
then I WILL BUY SPY's INTERCOOLER!!!

Buy Spy's intercooler... Spearco units have very low pressure loss, his has well-designed end tanks, it's in great condition.. sell your other one.

[Spilner521]

C2;383595']I don't know much about turbo naming/sizing conventions but you should be able to get away with quite a decently sized one since the supercharger will be the aiding factor in getting it spooled quickly.
GT35 should be plenty if you're not looking for more than 600+hp.
the intercooler was in a junkyard on an old Mitsubishi 3000GT, its a Blitz front mount
Any pics? If it's an actual Blitz intercooler (not just a generic core someone called a "Blitz") it's a pretty decent intercooler. What are the dimensions?
not entirely true... i was under the impression that a bi-turbo setup (as seen in some maseratis) was one small turbo feeding a larger one...and then shutting down when not needed...

sequential twin turbo setup uses the same sized turbos... but only one spools until the other is needed...
and parallel twin turbos both feed the same.

?
I know this was awhile ago...

That Maserati bi-turbo setup you're talking about is a sequential twin turbo setup, they just called it bi-turbo.

Sequential = one then the other = one turbo boosts until the other is spooled.

Twin turbo and Bi-turbo are still the same thing. There's no point in having two of the same sized turbos and having only one spool at a time.

Look at the B5 (2000-2002) Audi S4 with the 2.7L Bi-turbo engine. It's a V6 with 2 equal sized turbos each connected to it's own 3 cylinder exhaust bank.

[kwhauck]

or you could just build a motor like this......

[NickAlero2000]

ooooooo......
SWEET! lol i wish!

[[ion] C2]

that's the Ecotec, btw, lol. fcking sick.

[NickAlero2000]

jeez....
lol eco's with all that damn potential....

[cherrington17]

whats that giant tube on the left side??

looks like it could eat everything up to a 13yr old kid...????

[[ion] C2]

exhaust pipe lol

[cherrington17]

thats like a friggen 3.5-4" exhaust pipe!! :wtf2:

[[ion] C2]

6-8" i think lol

[Nate's Alero]

Omg :wtf2:

[Midgear]

holy christ that thing looks alot bigger than the ecotec im thinkin of :lol:

[kwhauck]

you should have heard it run and spool up..........ohohohohoh splurge.....

[Spilner521]

holy christ that thing looks alot bigger than the ecotec im thinkin of :lol:
That Ecotec is the same engine you'll find in Aleros, Cavaliers, Cobalts and many other small GM cars. Obviously this one's just realy extensively modified and probaby makes 10x the power :thumb:

[leoalero]

That ecotec produces more than 1450 horses runs 6.6 @211 mph at the 1/4 mile in the original lightened cobalt chasis the only thing i do not understand is how the trany system works on it,looks like a rwd but is still a fwd! Weird !!

[Midgear]

That Ecotec is the same engine you'll find in Aleros, Cavaliers, Cobalts and many other small GM cars. Obviously this one's just realy extensively modified and probaby makes 10x the power :thumb:


the "HOLY SHIT" factor = over 50% of that engine is stock components (according to the website)

and its shittin out 1400+ horse power. Jesus.

[Spilner521]

^^Yeah, seriously. There's a reason I'm ditching my LD9 for an Eco :thumb:

[billytheman1188]

we have a cavalier in the shop that has an ecotec in it.....

[99-alero]

i love the ecos , a guy in my area has a twin charged redline, sick car

[-Alero-]

ha and the honda guys think thier 4 cylinders are better.....lol

[Spilner521]

ha and the honda guys think thier 4 cylinders are better.....lol
An all motor K20/K24 is better. When boost comes into play is when the Eco dominates.

[cherrington17]

lately, i've decided that if my alero ever got hit so hard, it didn't get back up again... i'd get a eco alero/grandam... something like that.

maybe use the rest of it for a quick'n'dirty turbo upgrade (to get back to the V6 power, and better sound) then tweak/upgrade in the future...


...but thats just all IF my car gets wrecked. WHICH i hope doesn't happen.. :lol:

[Vinalero]

Wow! The Engine itself takes less space than all the bolt-ons!

thats some sick power coming from a 4 cyl!

[BlackJack]

so....twincharged eh?

I'm not excited about the build or the accomplishment, because as we all know, it's not a big deal on power vs. expense vs. effort.

However, I'm really excited to see you spend all that money!

Good luck!

[Spilner521]

^^Took the words right out of my mouth :thumb:

[NickAlero2000]

lol thanks guys...
I'm just trying to start something new here...i know i could find reliable HP in a well sized turbo but this seems so much more fun, an oversized turbo and a supercharger....should be fun!

[NickAlero2000]

I never knew that Chrystler put out a TURBO 2.4L PT CRUISER!!! MORE INSPIRATION!!!!
Maybe a few facts about how they turbo'ed this car will help me with mine!!!!!!!
:yahoo:

[[ion] C2]

It's an SRT-4 powertrain... how the heck would that help you turbocharge yours? Displacement means nothing when comparing engines for compatibility. The 2.4L in that is NOTHING like the 2.4L in this, besides that it moves the same volume of air per revolution.

PT Cruisers are nasty, ugly cars and should never have come factory with a turbocharger. Sickening.

[NickAlero2000]

lol
just a thought...i dont know much about turbo's, so I'm just looking for starting points and trying to find a place to learn about them...this is one spot, "the dark Z" is another inspiration point I'm using.

[BlackJack]

C2;388408']PT Cruisers are nasty, fugly cars and should never have been made

Fixed

[[ion] C2]

That too. :)

[Spilner521]

i dont know much about turbo's, so I'm just looking for starting points and trying to find a place to learn about them
What do you want to know? Ask questions, there's some knowledgeable people here that can help you understand how it all works.

[NickAlero2000]

I need to know how to size my turbo.
I need to know basically, what all the turbo measurements mean, like all the turbo specs, and how it affects the turbos performance.
I need to know everything there is to know about turbo's.
S/C is my specialty, passed down from my dad and what he did with cars.
I know little to nothing about turbo's, I've been too busy with school to really do much research on them.

[BlackJack]

To be honest, you will be fine with a S/C as long as you aren't trying to build a 10-sec monster. If that's your specialty, then roll with it.

[Spilner521]

I need to know how to size my turbo.
Sizing a turbo to your engine is based mainly on how much power you're looking to make and how quick you want that turbo to spool. The turbos that put out gobs of power won't spool super quick, and the little turbos that do spool super quick won't make a ton of power, so you have to find a happy medium that you're comfortable with.

Which brings us to...
I need to know basically, what all the turbo measurements mean, like all the turbo specs, and how it affects the turbos performance.
...turbo specs. Let's take a look at a turbo and it's specs:

Garrett GT3076R
http://www.dcr62.net/Car%20Pics/E30%20M3/M3%20Rebuild/GT3076R_1.jpg

GT3076R means it's in the GT family of turbos, has a T30 style turbine housing, has a 76mm compressor wheel, and the R desigantes it as having a ball bearing center section.

This turbo has the flow capcity of 500-525hp. This is hp rating at the crank/flywheel not at the wheels. You can probably push ±475whp out of it depending on engine, drivetrain (FWD, RWD, AWD) and supporting mods.

Compressor
-Wheel: 76.2mm
-Housing: .60 a/r

Turbine
-Wheel: 60mm
-Housing: .63 ar, .82 ar, 1.06 a/r

The A/R ratios on the housing tell you how big the opening is inside the housing, the higher the number, the larger the opening. On the compressor side, the wheel sucks in the air, then forces it through this opening before it's actually flowing through the "snail" housing. On the turbine, the exhaust flows into the "snail" housing, then through this opening before it hits the turbine wheel.

Usually turbos come with only one A/R size on the compressor for that given wheel/housing combo. The turbine A/R is the one you can usually pick yourself. It acts as sort of a nozzle to shoot the exhaust gasses at the turbine wheel. A .63 A/R housing will shoot the exhaust at the turbine wheel at a high pressure and therefore will spool the turbo considerably faster than a 1.06 A/R housing, but the 1.06 will flow a lot more exhaust in the high rpms and will have less backpressure than the .63.

On a small/medium displacement engine, a .63 A/R would be best to keep a quick spool since there's not a whole lot of exhaust volume to cause much backpressure. On a medium/large engine, a .82 would be a balance of both good spool and top end flow. On a large engine modified for a lot of head flow, the 1.06 housing would be good since the amount of exhaust flow will spool the turbo decently quick and the huge volume of exhaust won't see much backpressure with the huge turbine housing.

I need to know everything there is to know about turbo's.
Check out www.howstuffworks.com (http://www.howstuffworks.com) and look up turbochargers. It really helped me to understand a lot about the whole system and how everything works together.





So now I'll ask you a question...
I need to know how to size my turbo
How much power do you want to make? With your power goal I can give you a few turbo options to choose from.

[BlackJack]

So now I'll ask you a question...

How much power do you want to make? With your power goal I can give you a few turbo options to choose from.

And likewise, you should ask yourself when you want most of your power to come on, at low-end, midrange, or top end.

Personally, I have a T-70 (the "T" stands for Too F'ing Big). With the specs I chose, it's weak sauce on low-end and doesn't even start spooling until 2500 RPM. On the other hand, it hits 18psi by 3500 RPM, so what I sacrifice in low-end power, I gain in off-the-line traction. Another nice thing about it, it won't fall on it's face when I hit 5k-plus on the tach. It's still pushing plenty of flow all the way to red-line.

If you're wanting something for good street power, I would not recommend the size of turbo I'm running. It's best used for the track.

[Cliff8928]

But do you really need that much more low-end on the 3400?

[Spilner521]

it's weak sauce on low-end and doesn't even start spooling until 2500 RPM. On the other hand, it hits 18psi by 3500 RPM
Spooling by 2500 and full boost (I'm assuming) by 3500 is actually a pretty quick spool, especially on an automatic transmission that doesn't spend much time below 2000rpm, especially on that big of a turbo, and especially since the 3400 has some good low end torque to begine with :thumb:


...especially..

Speaking of...you ever get that thing healthy and down the quarter mile yet BJ?

[BlackJack]

But do you really need that much more low-end on the 3400?
Spooling by 2500 and full boost (I'm assuming) by 3500 is actually a pretty quick spool, especially on an automatic transmission that doesn't spend much time below 2000rpm, especially on that big of a turbo, and especially since the 3400 has some good low end torque to begine with :thumb:
...especially..
Speaking of...you ever get that thing healthy and down the quarter mile yet BJ?

This ought to cover both questions. Don't forget....4t65HD swap....2.93 gears. 60' times REALLY suck. That's why while I'm gone, a buddy is helping me get some more work done on it. In goes the 3000 stall TC. Bye bye slow launches.

And it's healthy now, but I'm not taking it back to the track. I'll be in Iraq by November, and if I blow the engine again or anything else, the wife will have to deal with a non-running car to have to move around. Just have to wait until I get back in Dec '09.

[kwhauck]

damn Blackjack, you are gonna be gone for awhile!!! I'll pray for your safety, i have lost some good friends overseas the last couple years. Hey you going to SEMA? How far are you from Vegas?

But do you really need that much more low-end on the 3400?

Depends on wether you are built to handle the launch or not, me the 3.94 FDR coupled with the whipple that will make full boost at 1800 with be fun to say the least but, my cam i built for top end, and i have a built tranny and real stiff suspension to hopefully help launch me into the 1.7 60ft range

[BlackJack]

Thanks buddy.I'm not going to SEMA. I don't do car shows. I hate ricers, and imports in general (which shows are usually full of) and I really don't care for being surrounded by women dressed like whores. So that kind of leaves me with nothing of interest for money spent.

[kwhauck]

yeah i'm just gonna enjoy my time and try to talk to as many reps as possible for products that are yet to me installed on my car.......plus i'm not spending any money basically other than plane ticket to get there...

[Spilner521]

Don't forget....4t65HD swap....2.93 gears.
Ah that's right, forgot about that.

[CiscoPath]

Just going back to the original topic for a minute. Larger turbos mean solely depending on the engine from launch until full boost. Depending on whether the engine/tranny are built for the hit and able to get a good launch, instead of a supercharger, wouldn't it be more cost effective and easier to tune with direct port nitrous oxide? You can find a decent kit for under/over a G. And if big hp is what you're going for, only place you'd be able to display it "legally" is at the track, so it's not like you're gonna be filling the nitrous tank every week. And if you are filling the tank each week, cost most likely isn't a big concern to you if you've invested in this setup to begin with. Sure, you have to invest in parts to regulate the bottle temperature/pressure, but you'd still come out cheaper than trying to install a supercharger/turbo combo and the custom piping/tuning to make them work together. Please fill me in if I missed some important factors. This was the setup I planned on running...............whenever

[NickAlero2000]

I'm going to have the supercharger providing immediate boost, then the turbo kicking in for high end power.
I want a big turbo, because the manifold pressure created by the supercharger will allow for it, and having the supercharger will allow the turbo whatever time it needs to spool.
I want fast, reliable power.(select 2 of 3 lol)
As over the top as it seems, I want to make 400-550 horsepower at wheels.
What do you guys think for a turbo?

[Spilner521]

Just going back to the original topic for a minute. Larger turbos mean solely depending on the engine from launch until full boost. Depending on whether the engine/tranny are built for the hit and able to get a good launch, instead of a supercharger, wouldn't it be more cost effective and easier to tune with direct port nitrous oxide? You can find a decent kit for under/over a G. And if big hp is what you're going for, only place you'd be able to display it "legally" is at the track, so it's not like you're gonna be filling the nitrous tank every week. And if you are filling the tank each week, cost most likely isn't a big concern to you if you've invested in this setup to begin with. Sure, you have to invest in parts to regulate the bottle temperature/pressure, but you'd still come out cheaper than trying to install a supercharger/turbo combo and the custom piping/tuning to make them work together. Please fill me in if I missed some important factors. This was the setup I planned on running...............whenever
Nitrous is a very doable setup and big power can be had if the engine is built for it, especially if you're only worried about having a fast car at the track. Your best bet is to get a wet nitrous kit that injects nitrous and the right amount of fuel at the same time. You can change the jets to produce how much power you want out of it. The draw to other power adders over nitrous is that you get a fast car all the time and you don't have to refill a turbo or supercharger.

[Spilner521]

I'm going to have the supercharger providing immediate boost, then the turbo kicking in for high end power.
I want a big turbo, because the manifold pressure created by the supercharger will allow for it, and having the supercharger will allow the turbo whatever time it needs to spool.
I want fast, reliable power.(select 2 of 3 lol)
As over the top as it seems, I want to make 400-550 horsepower at wheels.
What do you guys think for a turbo?
GT3582R with a .63 A/R turbine - 600hp turbo :thumb:

On a stock engine with little to no headwork, it'll take a good while to spool. With the supercharger helping, it should spool pretty freakin' quick.

I honestly don't know if the supercharger can flow that much air past the blades to make that kind of power, but there's one way to find out...

[BlackJack]

to top that off with the wet kit being paramount, I'd also opt for a "smart" kit that regulates mixes fuel based on bottle pressure. That way you know you always get the right amount of enrichment.

Zex has a pretty hot setup for that. On the link below, you have to specify wet or dry kit. Wet kit is around $500 and that's what's going into mine after the TC upgrade.

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/products1.php?id=462

[Cliff8928]

Depends on wether you are built to handle the launch or not, me the 3.94 FDR coupled with the whipple that will make full boost at 1800 with be fun to say the least but, my cam i built for top end, and i have a built tranny and real stiff suspension to hopefully help launch me into the 1.7 60ft range

Yeah, that will take some getting used to. I hope you have some good drag slicks (not DOT ones). Not to mention some indestructible axles.

Half the time I think my nearly stock 3400 with the 3.61 is too aggressive off the line.

[BlackJack]

Depends on wether you are built to handle the launch or not, me the 3.94 FDR coupled with the whipple that will make full boost at 1800 with be fun to say the least but, my cam i built for top end, and i have a built tranny and real stiff suspension to hopefully help launch me into the 1.7 60ft range

First to go will be your axles (twist) then followed by your CV cages.

** strike that.....first to go will be your clutch(s) followed by a ballooned torque converter if automatic

[kwhauck]

well, the tranny was built to hold 500whp daily driven including the stage 5 clutch, and i am definatly gonna need some serious axles, then i have been reading up on how some teams and individuals have caged their 282s for a lot more strength.....

[Cliff8928]

Sounds interesting... Got any more info on that ?

[kwhauck]

you mean the caging?

[Cliff8928]

Yeah... So I don't get another one of these... (http://home.comcast.net/~cliff_scott/cv/inner.JPG)

[kwhauck]

hmmmm that's nice.......um well just from searching "I honestly would be most worried about the case of the transmission, and the differential, not the gears, the case is aluminum and has a pretty small cross-section around the differential area, the drive gears aren't the weakest gears, the differential gears are smaller and ride on smaller shafts. The failures I have seen have been in these areas.I've seen this person's solution at the Fiero 25th anniversary, he had a 350 with a procharger on it, and it appears to have held up, the dyno was over 670+ lb ft of torque and 530+ HP at the wheels."

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/FieroWannaBe/25th_Show/26-07-08_1700Medium.jpg

Then there is another caged 282 from a northstar install.....

http://pff.hostkansas.com/pffimages3/girdle_plate_installed.jpg

more pictures of the second build at

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/089024.html

[Cliff8928]

Interesting reinforcement for sure. Have people actually broken the case?? I'm sure you won't have any troubles with the differential gears with the Torsen. Since there's no pinion or spider gears anymore.

[kwhauck]

that is the general consensus that with the diff and built axles the case will be the first thing to go, i've read several stories on 60degreev6 of broken cases, same on the fiero websites.......i'm definately gonna look into this.....

[[ion] C2]

Anyways, about twincharging... Josh F on j-body just went to the track (http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=46&i=365052&t=365052) with his twincharged setup. On 15 PSI at 3400 feet elevation he ran 13.5 @ 109 MPH.

Altitude corrected, he ran 13.0 @ 112.9 MPH. His 60' times were terrible (2.3), as he was on crappy tires and such, so I'm sure it'd be good for high 12s no problem.

[kwhauck]

could have been done way faster and probably cheaper with a big single turbo.....

[[ion] C2]

or if he puts a big single turbo on rather than the small one he has

he made 240whp twincharged at 7 PSI, and 248whp turbo only at 11 PSI

bigger turbo twincharged would be nice

[kwhauck]

the idea of twincharging is nice, but i'm just saying a turbo would have probably been better and easier, but i'm kind of a hypocrite, because the same thing applies to me.......

[leoalero]

Hey guys,about boost,someone knows where to get solid axles for the 5 speed trany with the ecotec engine??

[NickAlero2000]

ask in the 2.2 eco specific section, tacking that question onto this thread may get it answered, but not as quick as if you started a new thread in the 2.2 section.
And I want a big turbo in my setup, now that I understand things a little better I can start to shop with understanding.
I don't know if I put this in yet but my GM s/c kit came in a few weeks ago.
Prolly gonna use meth injection to cool it.

[Spilner521]

C2;389843']

he made 240whp twincharged at 7 PSI, and 248whp turbo only at 11 PSI


Those numbers are from 2 different engines, not twincharged and turbo only. The 240whp at 7psi was twincharged and from his first engine, then he built a different engine in a different car and that one put out the 248whp at 11psi using the same twincharged setup.

I just checked out that post. Now he's pushing 305whp 315wtq at 15psi. Not too bad. That trap speed is easily good for a high 12, providing he can cut something like a 1.8 60' time.

[[ion] C2]

.... oh

[NickAlero2000]

:lol: lol :lol:

[Alerosaint]

Best of both worlds FTW...heh heh.....hey spil what you putting to the wheels in your HO???

[[ion] C2]

he's never been to a dyno or track. lame IMO, but i'm all about numbers. he just likes that his car is fun to drive

[Alerosaint]

Tru...thats my main purpose too...but i like to know who i have an edge over...G6 get out the way....dodge nitro get out of the way....bmw 335...you got it...lol

[NickAlero2000]

lol dodge viper get out of the way :lol:

[Spilner521]

C2;390351']he's never been to a dyno or track. lame IMO, but i'm all about numbers. he just likes that his car is fun to drive
I'm over it.

I could care less about numbers, and I wouldn't be able to run the car as is at the track anyways. At the time, I just wanted a mild build that was faster than what it was stock. Not that I drive like an ass and street race every day of every week, but I've raced and beaten a few cars on the street...I know what my car is capable of.

When I get the Eco and GT3076R all situated, I'll get some numbers so I can brag, but it'll be awhile.

[NickAlero2000]

I have the supercharger (GM M45 s/c kit)
want the 62mm throttle body
want the shorter s/c pulley
I have A LIST of all of the components I'm going to need to build the lower end of the engine. I believe I'm going to be attempting to build the engine myself.
I have picked out the transmission. The Getrag F-23 5-Speed Manual.
I'm working on the turbo aspect of the setup. I have most of the components selected with the exception of the turbo manifold. Are those sold or do I have to have one fabricated?

[[ion] C2]

Let a pro do it. They put all parts through an engine wash, measure specs perfectly, have all the tools and experience for it, and you don't have the hassle. Plus, if something goes wrong, you have some place to go back to. If you fuck it up, you're screwed.

2.4L turbo manifolds can be had at various places, they usually come up on j-body classifieds. I think DOHC_tuner is still trying to sell his.

[sburke]

http://www.vulcanturbo.com/GMmanifolds.html scroll down, it's halfway down the page

[NickAlero2000]

Ok so heres the deal.
My friend bought the s/c off of me for her Alero...we may have another Albany member in the community soon, I have to tell her to join up here. She paid me exactly what I paid for it, so no loss.
Heres the deal. I'm realizing a kid in college(AKA me lol) isn't gonna have the kind of money I want to have by the time I want this build underway. I just can't save as much as I need to, too many expenses in my life right now.
So heres whats gonna happen.
Step 1: Engine, build for boost, bigger exhaust
Step 2: Accept that the stock trans is stayin in 'til I blow it up. This expense is the major problem, but my friend just picked up HP Tuners, so I'm not worried as much about programming shift points and such.
Step 3: TURBO first...GT70R will do what I need done and once the s/c is in there, I won't have to worry about a prolonged spool time.
Step 4: Supercharger in...once I have the money, and since its bolt in, I won't have to worry 'bout my car being out of commission too long.
So thats it...the turbo vs. s/c order may change, I'm not sure yet.
End product, once I have what I need for the turbo build its goin into the car. If I gather everything before summer, I'm not waiting until summer.

[Spilner521]

Step 3: TURBO first...GT70R will do what I need done and once the s/c is in there, I won't have to worry about a prolonged spool time.

What are you nuts? First of all, there's no such thing as a GT70R. There's a GT60 and that's good for up to 2000hp on a 6.0L engine or larger. Second, why do you need such a huge turbo? Or maybe you just don't really know which turbo to get. The supercharger will help spool the turbo, but only to a certain extent. If the turbo is huge and rated for all kinds of power, it'll still lag pretty good, even with the supercharger.

How much power are you looking to make? I can suggest a turbo for you that'll match your target power level and take advantage of the supercharger to spool it.

[NickAlero2000]

im starting to look realistically, and i want this setup to push out 400-500 hp (lol, i think its realistic).
im still unsure of the extent that the s/c will spool the turbo. i know it will force it to spool faster because there will be more exhaust pushed through the turbo. through all my research, i can't find out exactly how much faster the s/c will force the turbo to spool, the whole goal of me wanting to be twincharged is to be boosting all the time, and have the turbo to be fully spooled and boosting by 3000-3500 rpm, so i have room to stay out of boost if when im just around town.
the turbo setup is the part im still the least knowledgeable about, so thanks and apoligies for my misinformation.
thanks for jumping in again spilner.

[[ion] C2]

The "GT70R" is rated for 400-550 HP. It's some turbo made by some company that uses Garrett parts.

spyhunter used a GT30R to get 432whp

[NickAlero2000]

I knew I saw a GT70, but like u said, its some company, a knockoff...
if i can find the link ill post it.

[darksobsession]

don't forget fuzzy dice.

[natedawg9640]

im starting to look realistically, and i want this setup to push out 400-500 hp (lol, i think its realistic).
im still unsure of the extent that the s/c will spool the turbo. i know it will force it to spool faster because there will be more exhaust pushed through the turbo. through all my research, i can't find out exactly how much faster the s/c will force the turbo to spool, the whole goal of me wanting to be twincharged is to be boosting all the time, and have the turbo to be fully spooled and boosting by 3000-3500 rpm, so i have room to stay out of boost if when im just around town.
the turbo setup is the part im still the least knowledgeable about, so thanks and apoligies for my misinformation.
thanks for jumping in again spilner.


seems kinda late if you ask me... just cause you spool at a certain point doesn't mean you are going balls to the ball fast all the time... kinda depends on how heavy you are on the accelerator... unless i'm wrong here??? i am under the impression that you can stay drive around town in a sane manner in any car... with any setup... except for top fuel dragsters and the like. lol

[[ion] C2]

lol yeah you only make boost under load or at or near WOT, like was said earlier in this thread or in another one with natedawg

[natedawg9640]

yeah... so unless you are mashing on the pedal all the time... you can have a locomotive turbo under the hood and drive sane

[Spilner521]

I knew I saw a GT70, but like u said, its some company, a knockoff...
if i can find the link ill post it.
Yeah try to stay away from the knockoff stuff, especially with a serious build. Like Ion and Natedawg said, it's easy to stay out of boost when you're just crusing around town, just stay away from stomping on the Go pedal at every stop light. You don't want to be boosting all the time because you'd go through a full tank of gas in a day. Gas prices have been dropping, but not that much!!:p

Try to stick with an actual Garrett turbo. I would go with a GT35R. It's pretty big and will support 600hp, but will make 500whp all day at moderate boost levels. The GT35R alone would take a little while to get into boost, but with the supercharger should spool pretty freakin quick.

[Alerosaint]

you'd go through a full tank of gas in a day. .

Been there done that :cry:

[sburke]

Does anyone actually have a twin-charged n-body? I know it has been done on a J-body, but I've not seen one on here.

[[ion] C2]

unlikely

[cherrington17]

unfortunately.. most of us don't have the bankroll to support such a project....

[NickAlero2000]

nope...i'll be the first!

[[ion] C2]

another relevant thread in the JBO Boost forum now
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=40&i=157331&t=157331

[natedawg9640]

Does anyone actually have a twin-charged n-body? I know it has been done on a J-body, but I've not seen one on here.

might as well be on here though... if you can do it to a cavi... it can be done to a hoe... there's way more room in the engine bay.

[NickAlero2000]

money sucks. its pay my tuition or go into debt.
so the builds on hold
its still mad long away anyway
but my prediction is....
the money wont all be there for me to do this when i need it. :cry:
im still planning on actually doing the build...but it will be over time and as i have money to buy parts and such
so bear with me here...im still goin 4 it

[kwhauck]

no worries man!! just take it one part at a time, my build is in it's third year...:eek:

[sburke]

my own build just got extended as well, I've got to move soon, so I've gotta start saving up money.....sucks

[coolgrinder33]

hey man i hope everything works!sounds cool...and hey...why not start a little earlier?mabey spring

[NickAlero2000]

money won't be there then!!!
lol

edit: ENOUGH money won't be there then
plus i need my car to get back and fourth to school
30 miles one way then 30 miles back mon-fri
both of my jobs are within a mile(biking distance), so i would be able to have the car out of commission in the summer

[NickAlero2000]

OK so post #500 for me is gonna be a massive update one....
I'm switching to the M62 s/c, and having a Y-Pipe piece of intercooler piping to combine the turbo boost and s/c boost. Immediately after that will be another wastegate for total boost regulation. Therefore, I am t/c'ing first and waiting for the construction of the M62 mani for the 2.4 to be done to add the s/c half of the build.
Better, safer power this way...

[[ion] C2]

realize the MP62 manifold version will only work if you use the type that i told Vulcan I would want. The one with a pipe outlet from the supercharger to a pipe inlet manifold. that way you could run the pipe from the outlet of the supercharger into a Y into the FMIC and then one pipe into the manifold pipe inlet.

[NickAlero2000]

exactly.

[NickAlero2000]

Ok, so I'm starting to FINALLY piece together the turbo half of shit...so here's what I got...If there is are 3 LARGE STARS next to the part, I need help finding it cheap....just trying to save some money for the engine build...

Spy's Intercooler! I sold the one I had to my friend with a jetta, and if the intercooler isn't sold by January most likely I'll have the money and get it.

2.5'' Intercooler Piping
HKS SSQ BOV/Tial BOV***
Vulcan Turbo Exhaust Manifold
38mm wastegate (direct atmospheric dump)***
Garrett GT35R Turbocharger***
(Shit to tap oil pan, wtf do i need)***
Turbo Timer***

Believe me I'm looking constantly for parts on the sale blocks...but extra sets of eyes never hurts :)
Thanks everyone!

[NickAlero2000]

0o0o0o and some monster injectors-550-600cc***

[NickAlero2000]

So heres what I've ultimately learned through my twincharging adventure....
Along the line with the M45, everyone on J-Bo who has completed the setup has had an issue with total boost regulation, for whatever reason....I STILL, after MONTHS of research, don't get it.
So I decided to switch to the M62, there is a group buy for a 2.4L M62 manifold. I figured I would turbo, then add the s/c when the manifold was done. My intent with this, was to Y-pipe the turbo and s/c together to make them both intercooler capable. I would have a wastegate immediately after the Y-pipe, regulating total boost.
A member on J-Bo brought it to my attention that the boost from the s/c would push the boost from the turbo into the turbo, making it spin backwards and snapping the bearing. This would be bad.
One member who has his twincharged setup up to 15 PSI was recommended by several to stop there, since the s/c could not be intercooled (M45 btw...) it would be unsafe and heat soak would begin to show in the engine. So he was stuck....at 315WTQ and 305WHP.
Spyhunter is pushing 432 HP with only a GT30R turbo, and is NOT limited by heat soak because the t/c is FMIC capable.
In conclusion, this idea has ended for me, due to my determining that it is NOT WORTH IT and the setup has its limits, which are far below my power output desires.
I'm sorry to say it in many regards, but I am happy to say how much I've learned about this setup. Maybe someday I will pursue it again, but as of today, I will be working with a Garrett GT30R-GT35R turbo only.


I want to apoligize to all who I have dissapointed, but I will be outputting enough power to really turn some heads at the track....with JUST the t/c tho....

[NickAlero2000]

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/yammy35/turbo20snail.gif

[natedawg9640]

how bout remote mounting a turbo, running it into the SC and intercooling that... lol

[[ion] C2]

that's the same thing as twincharging, just farther away...

good choice nick

[kwhauck]

finally he comes to his senses.....

[NickAlero2000]

finally he comes to his senses.....

I know...it was out there, its still by all means do-able and in the range of someone who has a lower power target and wants a cool show car, like 250-300hp. My target, as previously mentioned, is over 450 horse, so this setup would be limited.

[kwhauck]

450 wheel or crank? which either one it is, please expound, the reason being that i find that a lot of new buildups that are happening people are spending a lot of money on motors, forced induction, and maybe transmissions, That means nothing or little is going into the suspension to help get that power to the ground, a build really has to be rounded to see great results, other wise you will just have a tire spinning dyno queen.....i sure as hell don't want that....

[darksobsession]

..........

[darksobsession]

and I really don't care for being surrounded by women dressed like whores.

???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NickAlero2000]

450 wheels, its been done in an N-Body, Spyhunter put out 432 whp....
and yes, suspension and drag radials are a must to help put down the power better
frame re-inforcement as well, but idk at what hp i have to start thinking about that...

edit: at about 250hp (10 or so PSI methinks, right before i build the engine)....Suspension stuff will happen.
Order of Operations:
Stage 1) Boost to 8 PSI, supporting mods, 75mm tb, full 3'' exhaust, HO manifold, everything that can be done without touching the engine or trans will be done
Stage 2) Suspension, Eibachs/Sprints with KYB GR2's and drag radials for the track....
Stage 3) Engine build, increase boost to 14 PSI
Stage 4) See what the transmission condition is at this boost level, possible 5-Speed or 4T-65HD swap
Stage 5) Reach 450 HP, increase boost until I'm running 10's
Stage 6) Sit back and enjoy my car!

[kwhauck]

first off, 432 is close, but it's not 450....Also we don't have frames, unibody, but yes re-inforcement could help, nobody has track-tested anything to my knowledge....

Stage 1) I'm not sure about the 2.4, 10psi could probably hit 250whp though....boost pressure also depends on your engine build, you could hit 280whp at 10psi on a stock engine, and with your built engine and the same turbo hit 280whp at 6 psi,
Stage 2) I would reccomend KYB AGXs and HandR springs, also with the goals you are looking at I would reccomend Slicks which leads us to
Stage 3 and 4) Combined because when a car is down for an engine rebuild, you might as well build the transmission, tell people on the board, ask spy, and race shop your goal numbers and what they think, build accordingly (i reccomend the driveshaft shop for part of it)
Stage 5) I applaud your lofty goal for HP, I think it is possible, as far as 10 second passes, better start with 13s first and go down from there,
Stage 6)You should enjoy every stage and take lots of pictures and videos!!!

Now some more things to look at

1. Tuning, spy is pushing farther than 432 and is currently messing with tec3 (a standalone system)

i'll add more later after you respond, my brain is a little racked right now....

[NickAlero2000]

Yes, I WILL take lots of pics and videos, I intend to enjoy making my car fast enough to eat Corvettes lol...
Starting with 13's sounds reasonable enough, with the right supporting mods I think I can boost 8-10 and run 250 HP.
I agree with you about the engine rebuild/transmission at the same time, it will be convienient to have both done. Less time I'll be riding on my bike, b/c I'll do it in the summertime. Hell if I win that green Olds that black00gt1 found I won't have to worry about my bike lol.
Thats all I got for now...I'll be bouncing around the site though and will come back to see your reply and such....:)

[Spilner521]

Here's what I would do:

Run a GT3076R.
Starting on a stock engine, run 10-12psi and push around 270whp...low-mid 13's easy.
Get used to that power and decide you want more.
Full engine build and absolutely a transmission build if you're looking to push over 400hp.
While the car's down for the engine/tranny build, beef up the suspension, get some sticky tires for the street, slicks for the track.
When the engine is back in the car, tune for around 25psi, that's where that turbo really shines. You should be well into 400whp at this point.

10's are a far cry at that power level, but with slicks and a good suspension setup, you should be able to dip into the high 11's @ 115-120ish mph. Boost control is key to running a fast time in a FWD car. You want to be able to launch hard with no wheel spin at a lower boost level and raise the boost progressively as you gain speed and traction. If everything is setup perfectly, you may even hit somewhere around 11.5 on a perfect day.

All that is pretty much what I'm doing, except with a different engine.

[kwhauck]

i was hoping you would step in here spilner, i'm not very up to par on the 4 cylinder motors.........

he brought up a couple good points that i couldn't think of at the time

1. boost management on launch
2. build everything in stages

my stages examples

stage one - boost the stock motor until it blows up - completed
spend three years building up
stage two - swap in built 5 speed with another stock motor - almost done
drive like this 3-12 months
stage three - swap in built motor
drive like this 3-6 months
stage four - add the boost until something breaks
stages five-a couple wives - reassess why you are in debt and then put more money into build-up and do it again!!!

although i hope to keep it to 7 or 8 major stages and one wive!!!

[Spilner521]

^^Yeah I'm in the "Spend three years building up" stage myself. I keep pouring money into the other car instead :thumb:

[NickAlero2000]

Its an EVO!!!!!
so its cool
lol

[NickAlero2000]

and that Tec3 Spy's looking at....
its pretty effin amazing.
i may go with that instead of HP Tuners when I choose my program....
i had an HP Tuner for a while, just sold the software to a friend who wanted it without goin through shipping hassle for watever reason. got back my money+150 for me to teach him how to use it...lol
i like the increased control over HP Tuners the Tec3 gives you...pretty sick shit...

[spyhunter]

Just adding some reference on builds.

My first setup had a T3/T4, GM S/C reflash, 440cc injectors, Apex'i S-AFC 10-12psi.. made 280hp. Got HPTuners ditched the apex'i s-afc and just fixed the injector constant, 300'ish hp to the wheel, same boost level.

Ditched the T3/T4 and went GT30xxR, we went to 350hp to the wheels, no change in boost.

Then we got some c16, 750cc squirters, tweaked the boost to 15psi and got 432hp.
.......................................
For an F23 Tranny one of the major weakness is the shift forks, they're broke dink. For power levels that are over 400hp 400tq, you're going to be looking at clutches that are not made by SPEC and are more along the lines of a twin disc setup. I can also say that an 99+ n-body axles so far have held to my abuse, stay tuned on that one. Yes i broke my tranny, but also realize it's had a couple hundred passes, 1/3 of which were on either drag radials or slicks, was used to teach half a dozen girls to drive stick. I've been through the stock clutch, a SPEC stage 3, and currently have a clutch masters twin disc setup.
........................................

An easy 400whp motor is "secret cam swap", port/polish head, ss valves, 2.3l HO intake manifold w/ an ls1 throttle body, 9.5:1 JE slugs, eagle rods, balanced bottom end, 2.3L HO crank pulley, GT30R turbo, 2.5inch downpipe, 3inch exhaust, no cat, 2.25 lower charge pipe, small intercooler, 2.5inch upper charge pipe, TiAL wastegate and blow off valve, HPTuners, walbro intank fuel pump 750cc fuel injectors, MSD coil conversion, NGK spark plugs 1 step colder. Nothing fancy, no magic, straight forward build. The block was from a 1998 car and it's a 2001 year head. BASIC BUILD UP.

I'd reccommend ditching the balance shafts, nowadays.

..........................................

If you're looking for more then 450hp, start looking into GT35R and GT4088R slugs.

[spyhunter]

10's are a far cry at that power level, but with slicks and a good suspension setup, you should be able to dip into the high 11's @ 115-120ish mph. Boost control is key to running a fast time in a FWD car. You want to be able to launch hard with no wheel spin at a lower boost level and raise the boost progressively as you gain speed and traction. If everything is setup perfectly, you may even hit somewhere around 11.5 on a perfect day.


11's in an LD9 equipped n-body is within reach with a full interior at 400whp, on slicks, and a decent suspension. I should've had it but i blew my clutch and headgasket on the run that had the mph to support 11's.

[NickAlero2000]

So was the 350 achieved without even touching the engine?
at what HP should I stop before building the engine?
underestimation please lol

[[ion] C2]

you should build it first

250-275 crank is the limit on components usually. rods through blocks are not good things.

[Cliff8928]

I've been through the stock clutch, a SPEC stage 3, and currently have a clutch masters twin disc setup.

How driveable is the twin disc? Is it easy to modulate with good pedal pressure?

[Spilner521]

An easy 400whp motor is "secret cam swap", port/polish head, ss valves, 2.3l HO intake manifold w/ an ls1 throttle body, 9.5:1 JE slugs, eagle rods, balanced bottom end, 2.3L HO crank pulley, GT30R turbo, 2.5inch downpipe, 3inch exhaust, no cat, 2.25 lower charge pipe, small intercooler, 2.5inch upper charge pipe, TiAL wastegate and blow off valve, HPTuners, walbro intank fuel pump 750cc fuel injectors, MSD coil conversion, NGK spark plugs 1 step colder. Nothing fancy, no magic, straight forward build. The block was from a 1998 car and it's a 2001 year head. BASIC BUILD UP.
Almost exactly what I'm doing with the Eco, with the exception of 8.9:1 pistons, Comp turbo grind cams, custom intake manifold using the LS1 TB, and a 3" turbo-back exhaust.

[NickAlero2000]

Ok, so how hard is this to do? What exactly does it require in terms of equipment, should I remove the pan, is there a specific spot I need to tap it...etc, etc.
ANY information from the turbo guys/anyone who knows about turbo'ing the 2.4 would help!
Thanks:thumb:

[Spilner521]

Yes, you need to remove the oil pan. When you drill into it, you'll need to clean out all the little shavings. You can't do this with the pan still on the engine. Plus, while it's off, you can clean out all the sludge and crap coating the inside of the pan.

Drill a hole above the drain plug as high up on the pan as you can. You can either tap it and screw a fitting directly into the pan, or have a fitting welded on. Welding it would ensure that it doesn't leak. That's what I did.

[NickAlero2000]

So what do I need in terms of equipment once it is tapped?
Is there a single spot on the turbo that the oil feed hooks into?
Once the hole is drilled, is it pretty straitforward?

[Spilner521]

You need a pressurized oil source to feed the top of the turbo. Drilling the pan is for the oil return.

Get a T fitting and screw that into where the oil pressure sensor is (driver side of the intake cam tower under the IDI cover). Then screw the pressure sensor back into one side of the T and a stainless braided line into the other side. Run that braided line to the feed port on top of the turbo's center section.

For the return, you'll want a 1/2 inch or 5/8 barb fitting for the drain port and a 90° fitting in the pan. Then you just run a hose from one to the other. Make sure the clamps are tight, you don't want any leaks.

[NickAlero2000]

You need a pressurized oil source to feed the top of the turbo. Drilling the pan is for the oil return.

What did you use in your setup as your pressurized source?

[Spilner521]

I re-typed that post^^

[NickAlero2000]

so the top of the IDI cover feeds into the turbo (Under IDI cover being the pressure source) and the drain hole I made puts the oil back?
gotcha :)

THANKS!!! :D

[Spilner521]

You got it

You want to make sure the center section is clocked so that the feed and return lines are close to straight up and down and not angled to either side. A slight anlgle is OK, but you want to minimize it as much as you can.

[NickAlero2000]

Any idea off hand what size the T-Fitting is?

[Spilner521]

I want to say it's something like 1/4" NPT, but I don't remember for sure. You want to make sure whatever size it is, you'll want one port on the T to be that same size and the other one a 1/8" port. From that one you'll run a 1/8" to AN-4 fitting into the stainless braided line, and a restrictor into the turbo.

Restrictor:
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=tp&Product_Code=ATP-OIL-022&Category_Code=BCS

[TheMeaningOfLife]

I read all of this and my brain just left my head, i have alot to learn about turbo's now that i got my bird...

[NickAlero2000]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY-CAVALIER-Z24-TOP-MOUNT-TURBO-MANIFOLD_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c6 6Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c 293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhash Zitem190271382105QQitemZ190271382105QQptZMotorsQ5f CarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Good for the GT30/GT35 turbo?

[Spilner521]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY-CAVALIER-Z24-TOP-MOUNT-TURBO-MANIFOLD_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c6 6Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c 293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhash Zitem190271382105QQitemZ190271382105QQptZMotorsQ5f CarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Good for the GT30/GT35 turbo?
Yeah, and it's cast. Nice manifold. Should last a long time and won't crack.

[NickAlero2000]

So what makes it a "Top Mount" manifold?

[Spilner521]

The turbo mounts on top of the manifold.

This would be top mount:
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q151/billyhoang/tm-h-05%20EG/P1010035.jpg

This would be bottom mount:
http://www.dragtimes.com/images/8606-1992-Honda-Civic.jpg

[Alerosaint]

I read all of this and my brain just left my head, i have alot to learn about turbo's now that i got my bird...

I was reading "maximum boost" a turbo book..it give you the nitty gritty..i read it in barnes and nobles im planning to buy it..give it a read

Spil you are a serious turbo guru.....now that manifold dont have a spot for an external wastgate..which do you think is better a external or internal wastegate or it really dont matter?

[NickAlero2000]

Spil you are a serious turbo guru.....now that manifold dont have a spot for an external wastgate..which do you think is better a external or internal wastegate or it really dont matter?

The one in the link does lol

and spilner thank you for all the info dude!
much appreciated!

[NickAlero2000]

So....with the top mount turbo manifold...is that the one where I can put the "mushroom style" air intake on the intake side of the turbo?

edit: anyone think there would be a problem making the turbo fit in the engine bay with the top mount mani, or should there be enough clearance?
anyone know of any cavy's that use a top mount turbo manifold?

[NickAlero2000]

^oops double post^ read above

[Spilner521]

Spil you are a serious turbo guru.....now that manifold dont have a spot for an external wastgate..which do you think is better a external or internal wastegate or it really dont matter?
Depends on how much power you'd be shooting for.

An internal wastegate would be fine for low to moderate boost pressures and power output, and it also doesn't take up a lot of room, a good thing if you have a cramped engine bay. While an internal wastegate would allow for running high boost, it will also probably cause boost creep due to the small size of the valve.

The external gate, while it does take up more room, is better for high boost pressures, but is also better at controlling boost at any pressure than the internal gate. Plus, you can pick between a bunch of different sized external gates based on your target power level.

I only run 7psi, but I still run an external wastegate. It's rock solid stable too, hits 7psi and the needle doesn't move all the way to redline.
So....with the top mount turbo manifold...is that the one where I can put the "mushroom style" air intake on the intake side of the turbo?

edit: anyone think there would be a problem making the turbo fit in the engine bay with the top mount mani, or should there be enough clearance?
anyone know of any cavy's that use a top mount turbo manifold?
Forget putting an air filter right on the turbo. Just have a tube fabricated to relocate the filter where the stock airbox is, like any short ram intake does.

I'm not positive on fitment. That manifold is similar to mine, but my turbo flange is rotated down just a little and the flange is actually set further out from the manifold itself than this one. Mine is a pretty tight fit with just a standerd T3 housing turbo. Since this one looks like it allows for more room, it'll probably fit the bigger GT3076, but it'll probably be tight.

[Alerosaint]

So are they wastegates settable...meaning can you set to allow up to a certain psi or do you buy them with a psi in mind...my bad that was a turbo newb question but im still curious....also a good wastegate would be pivotal for a twin-c setup huh...preferably an external

[NickAlero2000]

Yea,
I'm only turbo'ing now though, I want too much hp, and not being able to intercool the s/c would hold me back a LOT(like 330 hp MAX before heat soak).
I want a 10 second car.
But an external wastegate is optimal for any setup, it'd be easier to run a boost controller that way as well.
I just want to be SURE this top mount mani will fit b4 I buy it....

[[ion] C2]

why are you dead set on the top mount? vulcan's got straight out ones for $340 or something lol

[NickAlero2000]

I never said I was dead set on it. If it doesn't fit with the turbo on it I won't get it.
The top mount is cheaper, the Vulcan Turbo one is $400 (Add 50 for external wastegate flange)
I do, however, like the way the top mount looks. Its cool :D

[spyhunter]

How driveable is the twin disc? Is it easy to modulate with good pedal pressure?

You'll hate it, and grow some strong leg muscles. It's very driveable once you get used to it. Then again I've had to drive a few cars w/ twin disc setups. It's seriously like an on/off switch. You can bog the car w/o even thinking. It's not for the feint in heart.

[kwhauck]

Yea,
and not being able to intercool the s/c would hold me back a LOT(like 330 hp MAX before heat soak)...

you could intercool the supercharger, but it would have to be a custom setup, not the shit hEaton supercharger.....besides even with an intercooler you will outspin that puny 45 even the 62 before you make any real serious power....

[spyhunter]

turbo ftw. GT30 or if you want to go big dog GT4088r

[NickAlero2000]

turbo ftw. GT30 or if you want to go big dog GT4088r

Eventually on the G4088R.....
I want to enjoy the power in the low range while my goal is a lower range....
eventually I want to be in the 10's,
but first I'll break 12's and see where I am when the dust settles....

[Cliff8928]

You'll hate it, and grow some strong leg muscles. It's very driveable once you get used to it. Then again I've had to drive a few cars w/ twin disc setups. It's seriously like an on/off switch. You can bog the car w/o even thinking. It's not for the feint in heart.

Haha. So the point between bogging it down and wheelspin is a very fine line? That's how the Volvo S40 T5 and S60R are. Just without the heavy pedal.

[kwhauck]

Eventually on the G4088R.....
I want to enjoy the power in the low range while my goal is a lower range....
eventually I want to be in the 10's,
but first I'll break 12's and see where I am when the dust settles....

i think you should concentrate on 14s and 13s first.....

[NickAlero2000]

i think you should concentrate on 14s and 13s first.....

True. One second at a time. I figure H/O mani, 75mm LS1 tb, turbo, full 3'' turbo back catless exhaust, should sit me in the mid-low 13's to start...

[Spilner521]

So are they wastegates settable...meaning can you set to allow up to a certain psi or do you buy them with a psi in mind...my bad that was a turbo newb question but im still curious....also a good wastegate would be pivotal for a twin-c setup huh...preferably an external
They come with a set spring in them for a certain boost pressure. Usually when you order it you can choose which spring you want and that will end up being your minimum boost pressure you'll be able to run on the engine. With a boost controller you can turn up the boost as much as you want, but you can never run below what the spring in the wastegate is set for.
True. One second at a time. I figure H/O mani, 75mm LS1 tb, turbo, full 3'' turbo back catless exhaust, should sit me in the mid-low 13's to start...
You'd be best off getting a flange or something to match the HO manifold to the ports on the head. It's not just a bolt up and go type of deal. And why go catless? You can make the same amount of power with a high flow cat. Magnaflow #59959 is what you want...3" metallic high flow cat.

[spyhunter]

I don't have a cat............... actually I don't have much of an emissions system on the car save for the charcoal canister.

[NickAlero2000]

^lol nice^
found a REAL nice BOV cheap, a turbosmart one. Normally they run around 230 new. Got mine 50-new! The guy I got it from never used it, needed a higher HP capable one lol. So his loss is my gain :D

[NickAlero2000]

Got Spys intercooler, injectors from cobaltss.net coming, 38mm wastegate coming (Tial), as well as new vents for my vent-pod project. more updates to come with pics