Short Tracing

[cherrington17]

Granted, i haven't checked fuses yet, and thats first on my list at sun up. But i just connected my gauges, and i have absolutely no power going through no wires.

The problem occured when i started my car, my gauges didn't work (one color did, but one didn't) then wires started smoking. i tore the console up and found the main power wire (the one that would normally supply the power to all the "night lights" was smoldering, and broke its own solder connection.


where could a short possibly occur that would cause that? something was clearly drawing some serious power. My radio, gauge needles, idiot lights all still work...


and lastly, where is a good place to patch into the light sensor up in the front of the dash? (the one that controls what turns on at night or not)

Ignore "check the fuses" comments. I'm looking for worst case scenario short outs...

[kniedelm9490]

is it posible to just power it off a fuse? and just ground it?

you could splice something off the dash cluster im not sure what wire is which but im sure you could get the diagram

also . idk if u thought about this the dash cluster is powered by that switch that u can roll up and down for off during the day on during the night u could possibly run it off that

[cherrington17]

Ok, update. I had one blown fuse (parking lamps) but it didn't solve the problem. I have a short (meaning absolute 0 voltage, AND continuity between positive and ground) in the wires that connect both the center cubby light AND the one that lights up the PRND123.

where do those go, and how could i possibly have 0 voltage and ground continuity on the positive... w/o blowing fuses???

[Vtolds]

The only time I ever had wires actually burn, and really burn is when the wire was to light of a gauge. I dont know why you wouldn't have power, but I would use some heavier wire.

[cherrington17]

i was using like 18g wire, when i should have been using 24. :lol:

the problem wasn't/isn't a power issue, as in, it wasn't getting enough, the problem is the fact that the two power wires going to my center console for lights (that were my main power supply) are still at a dead short, for unknown reasons.

I really need someone who knows the electrical system to chime in here. Where do those go, other then to the fuse box? is it possible that i shorted out the light sensor up in the front? what controls all of this?? BCM? and is that the box thats under the glove box? or is it all done by the PCM which is above the brake pedal?

I'm not saying i'm not thankful for people trying to help.. but this is an issue that i have no eff'n clue as to what happened, and there is no sensible reason for why its still not working. Someone with some intimate knowledge would greatly help

[zzyzzx]

The first thing you need to do is go here:
http://www.aleromod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19347

And download any schematics that you might need.

[cherrington17]

those are just the haynes wiring diagrams... which don't really help me, because there are alot more wires than what are included in those.... or if they are all listed, they don't show where they go, speficically....

[super white alero1]

which diagrams do you need? Which circuits?

[cherrington17]

well.. after a little looking, the gray and black wire connecting the PRND123 lamp, and the cubby lamp, are dead. those wires are completely shorted (powers and grounds are connected somewhere)

as it stands, i have just completely removed those from the situation, and have rewired accordingly. but thats just a work-around for the problem, not a solution. where do those two wires go, and where could they be shorted??

[kniedelm9490]

idk man. u might just have to try and follow them from the cubbylamp back. is it possible that they lead to the left kick pannel? around where the hood release is?

[lonnie]

Ok, update. I had one blown fuse (parking lamps) but it didn't solve the problem. I have a short (meaning absolute 0 voltage, AND continuity between positive and ground) in the wires that connect both the center cubby light AND the one that lights up the PRND123.

where do those go, and how could i possibly have 0 voltage and ground continuity on the positive... w/o blowing fuses???Your positive may actually be a ground cherry. Its hard to trouble shoot this problem with out being there but like in my car all the lights are powered off of either a a gray and black or a white and black or a gray and black/white wire. Any of the black wires even with the stripe are grounded. Any wire with gray or white will be your either a fused 12v constant or a switched 12v constant. So I would go back and check to make sure you don't have you power leads actually hooked up to a ground. They generally run or I should say are fused in the passenger side fuse panel. As far as the transaxle lights it should be a Black (ground) and a Grey (positive), the grey runs into the the fuse block on the passenger side, from there it runs to lamp dimmer module, and from the module you should have either one or two yellow wires and a dark green wire that runs to the dimmer switch. The dimmer switch is fused 10amps at the passenger side fuse panel and turns into brown from there and runs to the auto park lamp relay under the hood fuse block, and from there as white to the BCM.

This is kind of why I am a fan of making a new circuit when wiring accesories cause you eliminate all of the above, and when it is time to trouble shoot you don't have to worry about shorting out the cars electrical system.

...oh yeah this is just from looking at my cars diagrams I don't know the year of yours but if you leave it I will see if it is similar.

[cherrington17]

thats the thing i don't really understand. (my car is exactly the same as stated above)

the gray transaxle wire is a grounded....somewhere. And its not suppose to be. That used to be 12V switched, when the light switch in the front of the dash tripped (due to low light levels) and now, it just reads as a pure ground. BUT when we checked the INST LPS (fuse on the top right of the passanger fuse panel) that still works fine... so I'm going to run a wire from that, over to where the gray USED to be, so I retain power/function. What could happen where, that would cause that gray wire to switch from power to dead ground?? obviously thats my problem (same applies to the other gray that went to the other lamp for the cubby)

All I can really think of is tearing the dash out and tracing the wire the whole length, but that still doesn't mean i'm gonna find my answer... (which is why i'm bypassing it, and not tracing)

it still pisses me off to no end. Now I KNOW there is a problem in my car that is unresolved..... :mad2: :mad2: I'd really like to find that, so i can fix it, so it won't cause a problem w/ anything else... but i don't know where that could have possibly happened, or what would even cause that.

[lonnie]

thats the thing i don't really understand. (my car is exactly the same as stated above)

the gray transaxle wire is a grounded....somewhere. And its not suppose to be. That used to be 12V switched, when the light switch in the front of the dash tripped (due to low light levels) and now, it just reads as a pure ground. BUT when we checked the INST LPS (fuse on the top right of the passanger fuse panel) that still works fine... so I'm going to run a wire from that, over to where the gray USED to be, so I retain power/function. What could happen where, that would cause that gray wire to switch from power to dead ground?? obviously thats my problem (same applies to the other gray that went to the other lamp for the cubby)

All I can really think of is tearing the dash out and tracing the wire the whole length, but that still doesn't mean i'm gonna find my answer... (which is why i'm bypassing it, and not tracing)

it still pisses me off to no end. Now I KNOW there is a problem in my car that is unresolved..... :mad2: :mad2: I'd really like to find that, so i can fix it, so it won't cause a problem w/ anything else... but i don't know where that could have possibly happened, or what would even cause that.Give me a sec cherry I got to do an install but we will figure this out.

[lonnie]

Ok well one thing you could try is take the fuse out and test each side of the fuse that way you divide the circuit into two and can at least tell which side is shorted. That would at least eliminate looking at a lot of unnecessary stuff. Just looking at the circuit that involves the transaxle indicator light leads me to believe that they could be a splice pack for all the greys that run to the HVAC controls, Hazard switch, Instrument cluster, and compartment light, and that may be where the problem is coming from I see what you are saying where any problem with the gray would affect them all. If that wire got hot enough to break the solder joint then maybe it burned the insulation away on a ground causing a short that way. No matter how much we speculate about it, the only way to figure it out for sure is to get in there and look at the wires for burn damage and see if it is grounding out. If those wires got hot enough it is possible that they melted insulation on a ground wire and made contact. How likely that is I don't know but I saw the massive amount of wires in your dash and figure that it is possible. Any more info you can give on it?

[lonnie]

Makes sense that the parking lamps fuse went because thats the power to all the lights, so you had to be drawing over 15amps at one point. I know you got alot of leds but those draw so little curent that I can't see them causing a fuse to blow. Do you have any larger lights on it? Also do you have all the Led's you got connected to the same circuit?

[cherrington17]

all the leds are in the same circuit, but they definitely don't pull more then 15A. They do 5A at the most. The short was definitely what caused that line to burn up. Its just a matter of finding where that short is.

and i traced all the way back to the base of the dash (before it Ts and goes off to each side) and the wire is solid, no burn marks at all. same with the ground wire that runs with it.

which is just entirely too odd.

[cherrington17]

UPDATE! woo hoo! something is really fubar'd.


as stated, we bypassed the circuit by making a new one. (fuse tap the INST LPS fuse) and whaa-la! the lights work now.


bbbuuuuttt... the second the lights kick on, while driving, the SVS light turns on too! WTF! :gun: :gun: :mad2: :mad2:

[kniedelm9490]

haha patients man i know ull figure it out.. its all a work inprogresss

[cherrington17]

:gun: must.... killl... carrr.... :gun:

speaking of which... we DO have an indian reservation about 15 minutes away.... if you don't see me on site for a while... i might have had the car "disposed of" and collected the insurance money...

:mad2:

[kniedelm9490]

hahahahha

[cherrington17]

little more of an update, but its really to be expected.

i also noticed on the drive home, that my other lights are out. Cruise control lamps, window lights, etc. its like i'm running in stealth mode, everything is turned off other then what i have bypassed and turned on (besides idiot lights) even my fogs don't work.

i'd think i burned out my dimmer switch, but it still works on my dome light (all the way up turns it on) but then again, i was testing the wires before that was connected, and they were still shorted....

[kniedelm9490]

oh boy take a break for tonight lol i went for a few days with out the speed light s lol its was a paiin in the ass but i dont think in ur state of mind ud want to deal with it

[cherrington17]

oh, i have my gauge lights, those are in with all the other vent/door lights that have been bypassed. They turn on at night like they should. (although 2 [one vent, one gauge] are out, for whatever reason. :banghead: )

[kniedelm9490]

lol well im sure ull figure it out then u can write a how to for us lol

[lonnie]

Cherry that all of those grey wires are electrically the same so it could be either one of the gray wires shorted to cause the whole circuit to see it as shorted...which means you would have to trace each grey from each light unless you can narrow down which ones you were working with or around. The bad thing is that its not exactly easy to do in our cars because everything is packed together.

Honestly it could be so many variables to isolating where it could be originating that it could take days to trace out all the wires.

Can you remember what you changed, or all the rewiring that you did, cause it is likely that a wire was hooked up that is shorting out the system. You could go back and start disconnecting one at a time what you got hooked up and testing the wires to see which if any are shorting the circuit?

[cherrington17]

the only one i was using was the one for the transaxle shift light...

so thats goes into the wire bundle behind the radio, which goes up to a T and then to the passanger side??

[lonnie]

So you have all of the leds hooked to that one grey wire? Also you know it changes from grey to like a brown once you get to the radio harness. It runs to the passenger side cause it runs through the fuse block but it should still be grey until it gets to the dimmer module. Have you checked the dimmer module that seems to be between the dimmer switch and the sound system electricaly and the module is just a transitor?

[cherrington17]

expanded below. ignore this one.

[cherrington17]

So you have all of the leds hooked to that one grey wire? Also you know it changes from grey to like a brown once you get to the radio harness. It runs to the passenger side cause it runs through the fuse block but it should still be grey until it gets to the dimmer module. Have you checked the dimmer module that seems to be between the dimmer switch and the sound system electricaly and the module is just a transitor?
I had them all connected to that. they aren't anymore.

soo.... where exactly does this change to brown? at the dimmer, that i haven't found yet?

it goes from the center console, up to the T wire bundle back/above the radio. Then goes over to the passanger side fuse box? The dimmer module is on the driver's side though?? (i only know of the dimmer switch) unless there are more of them hanging around that i don't know about.... OR unless the dimming/trasistors is controlled by the BCM control box under the glovebox....

and its quite possible that i burned up that transistor w/ the high power draw it had for that brief period of time. so just where would i find this illusive transistor/dimmer??


also, i thought this was odd. At most, i have, at the most, 20 leds lighting up the interior (5 gauge, 3 in each door, 1 driver vent, 2 passanger vent, 4 center vent, 2 switch panel) now, at 0.020A each, that works out to be not even 1A... but, when i put the new fuse tap in, i put a 5A in (thinking it was total overkill) and it blew it immediately. wtf is going on there? i still can't wrap my brain around that one.

[Cliff8928]

That's where the module is (#1)

[cherrington17]

cliff... i'm not gonna lie.. i have no idea what i'm looking at. :lol: :banghead:

[Cliff8928]

Man, even I was confused by that pic when I first looked at it. But now realizing the arrow (duh) it makes more sense.

You're looking at basically the HVAC stuff from the firewall side of the car. Notice at the top it shows the ambient light sensor (for the headlights). So the dimmer module is bolted to a brace on the dash somewhere below where that is.

There isn't any better picture in the service info, but it does say to remove the closeout/insulator panel on the drivers side (the black panel above the pedals).

[cherrington17]

hmm.... so tomorow morn, i get to rip out everything above the pedals, and i'll see if i can get some pics. (wether i find it or not) maybe i can get a "how to" made for this, or i'll need some help identifying what i'm looking at. :lol:

i've ripped out most of the stuff on the passanger side, straight over to the firewall, but i can't say i've gotten even close to that on the drivers side. then again, the steering column kinda gets in the way...

[kniedelm9490]

lol u should do a complete interior overhall as long as your taring the car up

[cherrington17]

i would... but i have no money, and no fiberglassing skills.

[lonnie]

I had them all connected to that. they aren't anymore.

soo.... where exactly does this change to brown? at the dimmer, that i haven't found yet?

it goes from the center console, up to the T wire bundle back/above the radio. Then goes over to the passanger side fuse box? The dimmer module is on the driver's side though?? (i only know of the dimmer switch) unless there are more of them hanging around that i don't know about.... OR unless the dimming/trasistors is controlled by the BCM control box under the glovebox....

and its quite possible that i burned up that transistor w/ the high power draw it had for that brief period of time. so just where would i find this illusive transistor/dimmer??


also, i thought this was odd. At most, i have, at the most, 20 leds lighting up the interior (5 gauge, 3 in each door, 1 driver vent, 2 passanger vent, 4 center vent, 2 switch panel) now, at 0.020A each, that works out to be not even 1A... but, when i put the new fuse tap in, i put a 5A in (thinking it was total overkill) and it blew it immediately. wtf is going on there? i still can't wrap my brain around that one.
Yeah Cherry I can't help you on that. I don't know the physical location, but like I said I'm reading the light schematic for a 2000. Now the transition to brown is from the fuse block on the passenger side to the auto park lamp relay in the underhood fuse block. I know this path is different in different years. It also shows that a brown runs from the passenger side fuse block to the sound system...whatever that means, but electrically it is the same as the brown that runs to the auto park relay. Dumb question here but are you using LED's with the resistors already built in? I don't know which ones you are using but some LED's have the potential to draw 40milliamps a piece, so with 20 that works out to be about .6 of an amp hypothetically. So if we think about this if you are tapping another circuit and it blows its probably because with the added load it is drawing to much current. So it depends on where you are tapping plus what is on this tap is it just the LED's or the LED's plus the regular lights? If it is just the LED's then you should be fine tapping off of and existing circuit, but if you are tapping all the lights in the car to another circuit then your going to have to fuse bigger. I didn't think about this before but have you checked all the bulbs to make sure you don't have a bulb that isn't shorted which is a simple problem but is also possible to short the whole system out.

[cherrington17]

i did check for shorts in my lights, and there aren't any. If i had one, none of the lights would work, since all the powers come from one distro block (one for each color) and a grounded line on one, would ground out all of them. Its happened, and its blatently obvious.

As for the fuse block, you just proved my own idiocy. :lol: if your first fuse is 10A you can't possibly put a 5A on the same tap... duh. when the first draws more then 5, its gonna blow the 2nd. its not like there is a diode in between, in the little plastic piece. I'm dumb.


and as for the transistor... I found it. :yahoo: thanks cliff! but... i unplugged it, and the wires are still shorted. If it was the bad spot, that should fix it, right? So, I guess I go back to tracing wires. :(

[cherrington17]

Cliff, if you want to add this in with your picture that you posted above....

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w246/cherrington17/Car%20Pics/P1030666.jpg

if you take out the plastic insulator above the gas/brake pedal (it has 3 bolts holding it in) its basically directly above that) its the black piece with the white wire harness going to the top of it. and just to the right of it (in the picture. in actuality its up quite a bit further) is the dash light sensor

[lonnie]

Well that is good then Cherry if it is still shorted out with the dimmer module out. Then that means that we have eliminated the problem from the dimmer module to the dimmer switch and then to the auto park relay. With that said we eliminated that side of the module and the only thing on the other side are the lights. I know its going to be a bitch to trace those wires out but it looks like indeed thats what you are going to have to do, while you are at it there should be a 2amp fuse for the CRUISE SW LPS (2A) in the passenger side fuse box...check this for any signs of damage. I see in the drawing that the controls on the steering wheel and the transaxle shift indicator light are grounded in the same splice pack. Are your steering controls working? Here is where I would go with the trouble shooting now Cherry. We know 1 or 2 things here either there is a connection that is shorting out the circuit or a bulb even the socket the bulb is in or maybe a wrong bulb in any even this is what I would do.
Here is a list of bulbs that are in the circuit, and you can pull them out according to which ones are easier to get to.
1. Transaxle Shift indicator
2. I/P Compartment Lamp
3. Radio only for the 2000 and 2001 though
4. Steering wheel controls and there are two coils on either side of this lamp called (inflatable restraint steering wheel module coil) but only on the 2000 and 2001
5. HVAC control assembly
6. Hazard switch
7. Instrument cluster (5bulbs)
8. Power mirror switch
9. Left power window switch
10. Right front door lock switch
11. Right front power window switch
12. Right front door lock switch
13. Left front door lock switch

Now I would start taking them out one at a time and test to see if it is still shorted out. Here's my thinking on this again, either a bulb is shorted which isn't the most common problem, but is highly likely in this situation. It could also be a shorted light socket. Either way it has to be in the wiring between all the lights listed and dimmer module especially since it was still shorted once the dimmer module was taken out.

[Cliff8928]

Oh, and as long as you're at that module... Here's the pinout of it.

I/P Dimming Module

Connector Part Information

12034060

4-Way F Metri-Pack 480 Series (NAT)

PinWire Color Circuit No.Function

A----Not Used

BDK GRN
44Instrument Panel Lamps Dimmer Switch Signal

CGRY8Instrument Panel Lamp Supply Voltage

DYEL32Instrument Panel Lamp Fuse Supply Voltage-1

[cherrington17]

Well that is good then Cherry if it is still shorted out with the dimmer module out. Then that means that we have eliminated the problem from the dimmer module to the dimmer switch and then to the auto park relay. With that said we eliminated that side of the module and the only thing on the other side are the lights. I know its going to be a bitch to trace those wires out but it looks like indeed thats what you are going to have to do, while you are at it there should be a 2amp fuse for the CRUISE SW LPS (2A) in the passenger side fuse box...check this for any signs of damage. I see in the drawing that the controls on the steering wheel and the transaxle shift indicator light are grounded in the same splice pack. Are your steering controls working? Here is where I would go with the trouble shooting now Cherry. We know 1 or 2 things here either there is a connection that is shorting out the circuit or a bulb even the socket the bulb is in or maybe a wrong bulb in any even this is what I would do.
Here is a list of bulbs that are in the circuit, and you can pull them out according to which ones are easier to get to.
1. Transaxle Shift indicator
2. I/P Compartment Lamp
3. Radio only for the 2000 and 2001 though
4. Steering wheel controls and there are two coils on either side of this lamp called (inflatable restraint steering wheel module coil) but only on the 2000 and 2001
5. HVAC control assembly
6. Hazard switch
7. Instrument cluster (5bulbs)
8. Power mirror switch
9. Left power window switch
10. Right front door lock switch
11. Right front power window switch
12. Right front door lock switch
13. Left front door lock switch

Now I would start taking them out one at a time and test to see if it is still shorted out. Here's my thinking on this again, either a bulb is shorted which isn't the most common problem, but is highly likely in this situation. It could also be a shorted light socket. Either way it has to be in the wiring between all the lights listed and dimmer module especially since it was still shorted once the dimmer module was taken out.


I'll do that, but first i want to find where the gray wire goes to (transaxle light power wire) since thats what caused the problem in the first place, so i'll trace that back and find out where it leads to. the problem must be some where along that run. Every few feet, i'll cut it, and see if its still shorted on each end.

and most of the bulbs in the location you listed are tiny halogens, so if they shorted, they'd just blow, and break the connection... so i don't think they can short and cause a permanent ground on both wires...

and w/ the dimmer module excluded from the issue, doesn't that mean the problem is somewhere in the dash? it can't be before the module, or that would have fixed the problem when it was disconnected...

[Cliff8928]

I'll do that, but first i want to find where the gray wire goes to (transaxle light power wire) since thats what caused the problem in the first place, so i'll trace that back and find out where it leads to. the problem must be some where along that run. Every few feet, i'll cut it, and see if its still shorted on each end.

and most of the bulbs in the location you listed are tiny halogens, so if they shorted, they'd just blow, and break the connection... so i don't think they can short and cause a permanent ground on both wires...

and w/ the dimmer module excluded from the issue, doesn't that mean the problem is somewhere in the dash? it can't be before the module, or that would have fixed the problem when it was disconnected...

That gray wire goes back to pin C of the dimmer module with all the other dimming wires. In order to rule out the module, you would have to probe for voltage at pin C (gray) at the module with the lights on.

[cherrington17]

the module still works, but kicks on the SVS light when it does turn on. but w/o the module connected, and the wires still being shorted, i can assume that the module isn't the problem. (if it was, when i disconnected, they wouldn't be shorted) unless i'm missing something?

[lonnie]

I'll do that, but first i want to find where the gray wire goes to (transaxle light power wire) since thats what caused the problem in the first place, so i'll trace that back and find out where it leads to. the problem must be some where along that run. Every few feet, i'll cut it, and see if its still shorted on each end.

and most of the bulbs in the location you listed are tiny halogens, so if they shorted, they'd just blow, and break the connection... so i don't think they can short and cause a permanent ground on both wires...

and w/ the dimmer module excluded from the issue, doesn't that mean the problem is somewhere in the dash? it can't be before the module, or that would have fixed the problem when it was disconnected...With the dimmer module excluded from the issue that means that the problem lies in in the wires from the dimmer module to the lights. They are all on the same circuit so you have to have one of the grey wires that run to the lights shorted some how. Also like I said it is unlikely but highly possible if you blew a fuse for a bulb to short out, now if your using halogens maybe not, but what about the sockets? Did you check all of your solder connections? Double check all connections. Also Cliff metinoned ruling out the module, well if you truly unpluged it that would cause in open in the circuit and you shouldn't read any continuity from any grey to ground, if so then it is still shorted of course. In short it is logical to assume that if you unplugged the module and you tested any grey wire and you had continuity then it eliminates(sp?) the module, dimmer switch, and auto park lamp relay, so yes it can't be before the module because unplugging it would have solved the problem. Thats not to say the problem isn't still under the dash cause the majority of that stuff runs in harnesses under the dash.

List of logic:
1: We know that you unplugged the dimmer module.
2: We know that if you unplugged the dimmer module, and the wire still tested as a short then the problem isn't before the dimmer module.

I also just thought of a way to make this alot easier. On the passenger side fuse panel when you open that up there is a long clear piece of plastic with holes in it, and if you take that off and look it has all the wires for the lamps right there and each leg of the circuit is coded, now Cherry you could cut there and eliminate each leg there and wouldn't have to go under the dash..give me a sec and I'll take a pic and post, but first let me give you the pin numbers

Compartment lamp/Radio ~ E6
Transaxle lamp ~ F7
Cruise Sw Lps ~ A7
Hvac control ~ B7 C1
Hazard and instrument cluster ~ B8 C2
Left front power windo and power mirror switch ~ B5
Right front door lock switch, Right front power window switch ~ C5
Left front door lock switch ~ C3

[lonnie]

...double post but here is the pic. All of the lamp wires (grey) run to the fuse block through this harness. Which is a bonus. Should make trouble shooting alot easier.
4490

[cherrington17]

i tried taking those off (the two on the back of that panel) and they only seemed to loosen... is there a trick to getting those things off?

but i'll definitely have to try those. hopefully i can just cut one, solve all the problems and leave it at that. but i won't have time to even look at it, until at least sunday afternoon....

[cherrington17]

ARGH. damn website errors.

[lonnie]

i tried taking those off (the two on the back of that panel) and they only seemed to loosen... is there a trick to getting those things off?

but i'll definitely have to try those. hopefully i can just cut one, solve all the problems and leave it at that. but i won't have time to even look at it, until at least sunday afternoon....
Are you talking about the plastic cover or the whole fuse panel? You may be able to do what you want just by getting at the wires in the harness but if you want to take it off I would have to look some more. I've never had a need to take the fuse box out. If how ever you are losening it and its not coming out then you may have to get behind the glove box and see whats back there. May just be a nut that you will have to hold.

...if you can get the fuse box out you may want to closely inspect that cause its possible the short is being generated from there.

[surreal_awakening]

Loosen the bolt. It shouldn't come completely out, it should stay "attached" to the plastic cover. Then at the top and bottom of the large plug you'll see a small "gap"...just get in there with a small flat screwdriver and lightly pry it out, a little at the top, then a little at the bottom, until it pops out.

[GoldStar611]

I was never able to get the clear plastic cover off when I installed my car alarm, I just twisted the plastic cover sideways and accessed any wires I needed that way.

[lonnie]

IF you get it out and I do mean IF...look for signs of burn damage at the back of it.

[cherrington17]

^i'm just talking about the clear plastic piece, not the whole fuse box. but if i have to do that, i suppose i could do that too.

although, the inst lps fuse is the only one on that circuit, and i'm still using that (just w/ a tap now) and its not shorted... so its probably after that....


with that epiphany (that was pretty obvious) being said, i SHOULD be able to locate the right wire, clip it and fix the issue at the fuse box.

[lonnie]

^i'm just talking about the clear plastic piece, not the whole fuse box. but if i have to do that, i suppose i could do that too.
I mean it all depends on how involved your trying to get I wouldn't take the whole fuse box out I don't think its necessary. Don't forget to keep track of what wires you test, and measure you continuity from the wire on the side that goes towards the lights to ground. Not saying you didn't know that already but letting you know. Also there is no need to cut every so few feet if you start at the harness on the passenger side, cause that takes care of the whole leg you are testing

...for example if you cut the wire or if possible pull from the fuse block F7 and test to ground then you have just tested everything in that leg which in this example is the Transaxle shift indicator light. Cherry once you find the short I would test another gray wire before fixing it to ensure it is only one short, and that it indeed cleared the curcuit.

[cherrington17]

oh, of course. i'll be testing each for shorts, on both ends.... just to be sure. i sure as hell hope its only the transaxel light wire that causing the issue.

[cherrington17]

whelp... its not.



I found all the brown wires coming OUT of the fuse block, and cut them all. from left to right, the first 3, and the last 2 are all shorted. the middle ones aren't.


so does that mean its the relays in the front of the car that got cooked?


also, when i cut these, the transaxel light is no longer shorted. so its defintely downstream from where i was looking.

hooray for progress! boo for where its pointing. :lol: :glare:

[lonnie]

So let me make sure I understand. From looking at the picture the top wires appear to be coming from the fuse block and the ones at the bottom seem to be running to the lights. Are you saying that the wires at the bottom are still shorted? You could pull the fuses and test from fuse the the end of the suspected wires if it is still shorted that would point to the fuse box, that's if the top wires run to the fuse box and thats what tested as a short. Sorry I'm simple but if the wires that you have at the bottom there are the light wires the only way they could short is if the bulb has shorted or the insulation was melted off. I also think one of those wires could have been the the dimmer module wire.......

you know what it doesn't make sense. looking athe picture did you test the top wires from there to chasis ground, and did you test the bottom wires from there to chasis ground?

[lonnie]

Ok I just went to my car and first thing I noticed is that I only have 7 wires not nine. Second there is a ground spice pack in the upper left corner of the fuse panel and another under the carpet on the floor pan just before the b pillar. Any test in reference to ground I would make from either of those two points. Third the wires from the fuse block run up under the seat and possiblely back up front which I still think is the light side. There is a harnes wrapped in black cloth tape in the upper left side of the panel as well but it tucked pretty good so it doesn't stand out. Now Test each wire, and I hope you know where they go, but anyway test from the bottom room of each wire to the screw holding down either one of the splice packs..this will give you the best known ground, and see if they are still shorted, also what kind of meter do you have is it a DMM or anolog and are you using the tone to check?

[cherrington17]

yes. DMM and using continuity tone, for checking. (so i don't have to look, can i can just listen)

(just for reference, that is the bundle of wires that come out of the front bottom of the fuse block, and travel down under the kick panel. I took that kick panel off and cut the black electrical tape like stuff off of those, and found those wires)
the top are the ones coming out of the fuse block, and after cut, did not have any that shorted.

The bottoms are what are going back into the engine, and 5 were shorted. I also went back and check the primary wire that burned up, and after cut, it no longer was a short.

Those couldn't be the wires that run to lights in the door or on that side, as they are brown, which, according to the haynes reference sheet, are the ones that head up into the fuse block in the engine.

so the next issue is, did it cook a relay?

[cherrington17]

ok... i went out and double checked.. (more thoughout this time)

and same as above, but i doublechecked...

wires going to the little grid (the grid in the clear plastic piece)
A1/A3 are NOT shorted, at the fuse block
A2/B1/C1 are shorted at the fuse block

and now, my lights won't turn on, which means, when i resoldered those wires, i apparently didn't match up the right ones to the right ones. I know the big 3 are good (clearly different sizes) but i'm gonna need to know where the ones i listed go to, after the fuse block... so i can possibly reconnect them again.

:cry: dumb move on my part.

[Cliff8928]

yes. DMM and using continuity tone, for checking. (so i don't have to look, can i can just listen)

Were you doing that with the bulbs still plugged in?

[cherrington17]

yes. so i need to take my doors off, take the bulbs out, and retest? (the center console isn't even in the car, so its not those...

[Nate's Alero]

i am never doing this to my car now.....

[cherrington17]

my car ran perfectly fine, until i started screwing with things and blew it up. just learn from my mistake and run it like i have it now. fuse tap the INST LPS fuse, and run a new circuit.

[lonnie]

Good luck Cherry It may very well be something simple. Now let this be a lesson to others to run a circuit seperate of the cars circuit so that there is always a plan B.

Nate~This is a very good mod to do, and I would like to do it myself whe n I get the motivation, and Cherry has done a good job, unfortunately things happen, and when dealing with this amount of wiring something is always bound to happen.

Cherry is there anyway else I can help, let me know!

[cherrington17]

i'll know more tomorrow afternoon, monday, and a little tues morn.... unfortunately, i'm stuck at work 10-9 today. :glare:

[cherrington17]

alrighty... doors are off. checked the bulbs and one was dead. but they are halogens (might be replacing them all with leds, haven't decided yet) but one thing troubles me about this check....

if its blown, that wouldn't cause a short. it'd just not light that ONE bulb up....

but i'll also check the brown wires again later today, after work. see if they are still shorted w/o the doors connected.

how would i test the relays under the hood to see if thats the problem? w/ the ones that could possibly be affected, are there any other in the car that i could pull and replace, to see if it might fix something, or do i have to go buy all new, just to test?

oook. 'nother update:

with the doors off, all the browns that were shorted, are no longer shorted. so it was clearly something in the doors.... (ugh) lets hope its the bulbs (im attempting to replace them all tonight)

the other question i have, the downside brown ones... several are still shorted, and they clearly run to the back of the vehicle, down the plastic stripping under the kick panel... where do those go???

also, for pure aesthetics.... for the control lights (little bulbs in the switches) they are powered by the gray wires, right? (that'd make sense) would putting a resistor inline with the gray wires going to the switch, hurt anything??

[Cliff8928]

Well, Are you sure they're shorted, or are the lights in the door allowing a path to ground.

[cherrington17]

the ones on the bottom of the picture are showing that they are connected to ground, and the ones on top (w/o the switches in the door) aren't anymore.

when i checked the bulbs, there all of there had continuity, except one...


where could those wires possibly be going, heading toward the backseat?

and would a resistor in line w/ the gray wires affect the switch at all, or are those solely for lighting up the bulbs?

[lonnie]

alrighty... doors are off. checked the bulbs and one was dead. but they are halogens (might be replacing them all with leds, haven't decided yet) but one thing troubles me about this check....

if its blown, that wouldn't cause a short. it'd just not light that ONE bulb up....
No This would cause an open because a bulb reads as a short..if you take a meter across a bulb you should read continuity.

but i'll also check the brown wires again later today, after work. see if they are still shorted w/o the doors connected.

how would i test the relays under the hood to see if thats the problem? One way to test them is to put 12v on one side of the coil and ground the other side and read with the meter on the volt setting that it is reading 12v on the switched side when you put the ground on, and when you take it off you shouldn't read any voltage. I wouldn't go through all that trouble, but there should only be one relay I believe and that is the auto park lamp relay..at least thats all I see.

w/ the ones that could possibly be affected, are there any other in the car that i could pull and replace, to see if it might fix something, or do i have to go buy all new, just to test?All new bulbs or all new relays? I dont think so! If you are pulling the bulbs and testing make sure you read across the socket because then you are testing to make sure the socket isn't shorted. Also like I said above, when you test a bulb it should read continuity on it. Some with two filiments will read continuity on two legs and then the other two legs will read continuity.

oook. 'nother update:

with the doors off, all the browns that were shorted, are no longer shorted. so it was clearly something in the doors.... (ugh) lets hope its the bulbs (im attempting to replace them all tonight)

the other question i have, the downside brown ones... several are still shorted, and they clearly run to the back of the vehicle, down the plastic stripping under the kick panel... where do those go??? When you cut those are you sure those weren't the brake lights, you may want to check that out cause all the lights in the back are feed with brown wires..ie third brake light, tail lights, parking lights...etc

also, for pure aesthetics.... for the control lights (little bulbs in the switches) they are powered by the gray wires, right? (that'd make sense) would putting a resistor inline with the gray wires going to the switch, hurt anything??Yes this is quite possible cause remember you are reducing the amount of current that is either required or need. With to small a resistor in series it could cause the lights to not turn on at all, and if so then they would be dim...all depends on the size and if it is letting the correct amount of current through.

the ones on the bottom of the picture are showing that they are connected to ground, and the ones on top (w/o the switches in the door) aren't anymore. Ok that makes sense if the ones at the bottom of the pic are connected to the lights then they should read ground.

when i checked the bulbs, there all of there had continuity, except one...


where could those wires possibly be going, heading toward the backseat?

and would a resistor in line w/ the gray wires affect the switch at all, or are those solely for lighting up the bulbs?If they are heading towards the back seat then I'm almost positive that they are for the taillights, but make sure cause sometimes those wires do that then turn and run under the seats. And yes the wrong size resistor could affect the circuit cause it would reduce the current on the line. If what you mean is that you cut the gray wire and connected one side to a resistor and the other side to the resistor. You got to remember that one change to the grey wires affects the rest of the circuit...I really don't think those brown wires are for the interior lights at all, and that the grey wires that run in that harnes are for them and may divide up some where under the dash.

[cherrington17]

well dammit... :banghead:

and i'm asking about resistors in the gray lines going into the switch harnesses, because it appears (in the functioning of the switch) that the gray wires ONLY supply power for the bulbs. to which i'm replacing those halogens with leds. :D i haven't test in car yet, but w/ the meter continuity is only present on one peg for lighted power.

and i guess i gotta go rewire my brake lights. :No: dammit again...


so we haven't really made any ground then... the doors didn't have any noticible shorts. ONE bulb didn't have continuity, but when put on 12v test leads, it still lit up....


and just thinking here... why would the short in the transaxel light disappear, when i cut those brown wires???

[cherrington17]

ok... so i'm confused now. w/ those browns cut, and my doors still off....

my brake lights are still working, and my cruise control lamps are on. so when i put my doors back on (before i reconnect the browns) if they stay on, its something in those brown wires. if they go off, its definitely the doors.

but if my brakes work... (confused part) what the hell do those brown wires do!? :lol: :glare: i don't seem to have lost anything.... (i guess i get to trace those now, don't i?)

[lonnie]

well dammit... :banghead:

and i'm asking about resistors in the gray lines going into the switch harnesses, because it appears (in the functioning of the switch) that the gray wires ONLY supply power for the bulbs. to which i'm replacing those halogens with leds. :D i haven't test in car yet, but w/ the meter continuity is only present on one peg for lighted power.

and i guess i gotta go rewire my brake lights. :No: dammit again...


so we haven't really made any ground then... the doors didn't have any noticible shorts. ONE bulb didn't have continuity, but when put on 12v test leads, it still lit up....


and just thinking here... why would the short in the transaxel light disappear, when i cut those brown wires???
Damn it I had responded to each question but the server screwed me, so let me shorten it cause I don't want to type all that again.

We have made some ground, the only problem is that we have jumped all ove the place that it is hard to keep up with. Responding to the question about the resistors...Yes it could affect the circuit becasue they are reducing the current on that circuit, now with that said it all depends on the size of the resistors and what is on the circuit. Let me explain. If you are only running LED's and are using the resistors to reduce the current for them but also have bulbs on there of say any type then you could either not have them working at all, or they will be very dim, because they aren't getting enough juice. If you have resistors on each grey wire coming from that fuse block you may want to look at that again.

See what I think is going on is I'm thinking that everything is hooked up the same as factory which is the truly only way to trouble shoot the circuit correctly. If there are resistors and other lights hooked up to what we are testing then the whole dynamic changes.

As for the short being gone when one of the brown wires was cut is confusing. I'll have to think about that.

[cherrington17]

well... there are still 4 brown connected. the three thick center ones, and one of the smaller thin ones.

but still... that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

and about the resistors... i'm gonna give it a shot. while i was checking the bulbs that were in there, most of them got obliterated anyway (fyi, they don't just pull out of the socket) so i'd have to replace them anyhow. I don't think it'll be a problem, because there is one pin in each little harness that is dedicated for powering the light bulb. so a 600ohm resistor in line shouldn't hurt it anymore then putting an led anywhere else in the car. electrically, it'll still look like a tiny halogen... just with less current being drawn.

[lonnie]

ok... so i'm confused now. w/ those browns cut, and my doors still off....

my brake lights are still working, and my cruise control lamps are on. so when i put my doors back on (before i reconnect the browns) if they stay on, its something in those brown wires. if they go off, its definitely the doors.

but if my brakes work... (confused part) what the hell do those brown wires do!? :lol: :glare: i don't seem to have lost anything.... (i guess i get to trace those now, don't i?)..but you said you rewired them before right, so that could explain that, are you saying that as it stands now the brakes, reverse, and signals all work in the back? Did you take off the bypass that you had in? Those browns are either the tail lights or in the front. I see that five of those browns run from the right side fuse panel to:
1 to the Left rear lamp assembly
1 to the Right rear lamp assembly
1 to the license plate lamp
1 to the Left rear compartment lid back-up/tail lamp
1 to the Right rear compartment lid back-up/tail lamp

There is also one brown that runs from the right side fuse panel that goes to the steering wheel controls and steering wheel coils, and should be fused at 2amps

...so that is 6 of the 9 browns that you have, and I think the other three are different sizes, and are possibly the ones you were able to reconnect.

[lonnie]

ok... so i'm confused now. w/ those browns cut, and my doors still off....

my brake lights are still working, and my cruise control lamps are on. so when i put my doors back on (before i reconnect the browns) if they stay on, its something in those brown wires. if they go off, its definitely the doors.

but if my brakes work... (confused part) what the hell do those brown wires do!? :lol: :glare: i don't seem to have lost anything.... (i guess i get to trace those now, don't i?)..but you said you rewired them before right, so that could explain that, are you saying that as it stands now the brakes, reverse, and signals all work in the back? Did you take off the bypass that you had in? Those browns are either the tail lights or in the front. I see that five of those browns run from the right side fuse panel to:
1 to the Left rear lamp assembly
1 to the Right rear lamp assembly
1 to the license plate lamp
1 to the Left rear compartment lid back-up/tail lamp
1 to the Right rear compartment lid back-up/tail lamp

There is also one brown that runs from the right side fuse panel that goes to the steering wheel controls and steering wheel coils, and should be fused at 2amps

...so that is 6 of the 9 browns that you have, and I think the other three are different sizes, and are possibly the ones you were able to reconnect.

....nevermind the front none of the browns that run to the right side interior fuse panel run up front so don't worry about the front at all.

[cherrington17]

alright... so i'll go check those, see what i have/don't have.

where would i find a contact for the steering wheel controls, so i can find out which one of those, that one is?

[cherrington17]

k... so right rear turning signal is out. looks like liscense plate is too. cant check back up lights... since i'm the only one here. (that'd be bad to attempt)

[lonnie]

Cherry there is also a brown wire that runs from the Fuse block and splits and goes to the Sound system and the Auto park lamp cntrl relay.

Here are the grid codes so you know where each wire hooks in to the fuse panel, this is according to a 2000 though

C1~Left rear lamp assembly
B1~Right rear lamp assembly
A1~License lamp
A2~Left Rear compartment lid back-up/ tail lamp
A3~Right Rear compartment lid back-up/ tail lamp


Here's a way to test the whole lamp circuit. Right if you still have all the browns disconnected pull out relay (19) which is your Auto Park Lamp Cntrl Relay. Take you meter and set it for DC volts, put you positive lead in the socket for pin T9 and the black lead to ground you shouldn't read any voltage. If so this tells us that there is a hot wire across the browns from the fuse block to the relay under the hood. If you don't read any voltage this tells us that the browns from where they are cut to the relay are good.

Like I said you could test the relay but you will need a power supply here is the pin out of the relay
T8~ is the ground side of the coil
V9~ is the hot side of the coil
V8~ is the Open side of the relay and is always hot in the car
T9~ is the Closed side of the relay and is where the lights are tied in


Only test this out of the circuit so that no more damage is caused!

To test this you will only need a small amount of voltage across T8 (negative) and V9(positvive) of the coil. Next use your continuity tester and put the black lead on pin T9 and the red lead on V8, now toggle the power when you turn the power on you should read continuity, and when the power is off you should not.

[cherrington17]

ok... for testing the relay... i have 85,86,87,30 for contacts.

85/86 appear to be the power and grounds and 30/87 are the switch... so what number do i replace with what you posted??

[cherrington17]

nvm. my tarded ness wore off, and i figured it out. (i've used relays before, i just forgot how to read them) the relay clicks, and has continuity.

and i tested the socket and got 9 millivolts. which i'm guessing is negligible... thats just bad grounding somewhere. :lol:

[lonnie]

ok... for testing the relay... i have 85,86,87,30 for contacts.

85/86 appear to be the power and grounds and 30/87 are the switch... so what number do i replace with what you posted??
So T8 and V9 would be equivalent(sp?) to 85 and 86 which are the coil
and V8 is the same as 30
and T9 is the same as 87

also when testing this it doesn't matter if 85 is hot or ground and the same for 86, because these are the coil. just test acroos 87 and 30 to see if it is closing, when voltage is applied to the coil and closing when voltage is taken off.


Oh yeah make sure there isn't a diode across the coils or you will have to go with the right polarity Cherry!

If there is a diode shown put the positive side on the cathode side (side with the stripe) of the coil and the negative on the anode side ( side without the stripe)

[cherrington17]

ok... so the rear passanger turn signal is out, i'm gonna check the bulb when i get back from some errands... but it looks ok (took only that one out) but the wiring is blue and black (by the looks of it, in a dark garage)

i got most of the browns reconnected, but i also have a stray.. i can't seem to find where it is in the grid, but i guess if i have one left over, thats what it connects too... :huh:

and i don't seem to have continuity to any of the browns, from the rear passanger backup light. how could that be? i'll have to check the other side, later too.. just odd things all over the place.

[cherrington17]

what the eff! i had like 4 posts in here, that i posted an hour or two ago, and now they are gone... worthless damn server!!! :gun:


ok. so i'm getting the browns connected... slowly... but i'm getting there.

[cherrington17]

ok... so the browns are reconnected in the RIGHT way (tested continuity at the source, and at the cut, then matched them to the grid) but something is a miss.

-outer brake lights don't work
-can't check reverse lights for another 3 hrs (no-one to look while i hold the brake)
-passanger rear turn signal is out, causing the front to hyper blink.


... i hate chasing gremlins....

Update: I cut the passanger turn signal, dark blue power wire, up where the browns were cut. front (going to fuse/engine) was good, no short, good power. The back, showed a short....

soldered back together, tore up backseat and started tracing, and found nothing. retested, and its good now. :cry: what the hell is going on?!?

as it stands, the original short is gone, back lights are rewired (again, will check later) but the SVS light is still on.

how do i have a roaming short?????????????

[cherrington17]

ok... so... i dunno.

i didn't do anything.... so i won't ever say i fixed it.

but i tightened down the fuse boxes, rechecked all my fuses, put the door switches back on... and everything works... :wtf2: i'm confused. SVS light is gone too.


except... an odd thing going on with my driver's side switches. I put red lights under them.. and if you hold the window switch harness, very lightly press up on it (against the box) the light comes on, and when it does, the mirror light goes off. when you lightly let up on it.... the mirror light comes on.... maybe its been rained on too many times? could this be what was causing issues?? and while i'm asking, the mirror bulb was the one with 0 continuity, but still lit slightly under 12V power. maybe it was causing problems?? i frankly, have no answers at this point... but i guess i'm in the market for new switches... just so see if maybe the board is bad in one of them...

[lonnie]

ok... so... i dunno.

i didn't do anything.... so i won't ever say i fixed it.

but i tightened down the fuse boxes, rechecked all my fuses, put the door switches back on... and everything works... :wtf2: i'm confused. SVS light is gone too.


except... an odd thing going on with my driver's side switches. I put red lights under them.. and if you hold the window switch harness, very lightly press up on it (against the box) the light comes on, and when it does, the mirror light goes off. when you lightly let up on it.... the mirror light comes on.... maybe its been rained on too many times? could this be what was causing issues?? and while i'm asking, the mirror bulb was the one with 0 continuity, but still lit slightly under 12V power. maybe it was causing problems?? i frankly, have no answers at this point... but i guess i'm in the market for new switches... just so see if maybe the board is bad in one of them...
Well you had to fix it some how, or like you said the drivers side switch panel had moisture in it and probably shorted out the board. Its really hard to say at this point, cause alot of things that aren't even associated with the interior lights are acting up. I could see where that switch panel being wet could cause that problem but I've left my door open during ran a few times and never experienced that. So help me to under stand, is everything but the rear turn signal working and I'm just talking about the factory circuit?

[cherrington17]

no...

everything is working. absolutely everything.

[lonnie]

no...

everything is working. absolutely everything.
wow very odd!

[cherrington17]

yeah. tell me about it. i think the gremlin that was trying to stay one step ahead, quickly ran down the road to pester someone else with random issues. :lol:


and also, i want to add, the leds i was trying to add, in the door switches, works in theory. i got some to light, but they are all different brightness levels, and some work when others don't... so i'm going back to the old fashioned method.... i tried... :p

[lonnie]

yeah. tell me about it. i think the gremlin that was trying to stay one step ahead, quickly ran down the road to pester someone else with random issues. :lol:


and also, i want to add, the leds i was trying to add, in the door switches, works in theory. i got some to light, but they are all different brightness levels, and some work when others don't... so i'm going back to the old fashioned method.... i tried... :pYeah I here that. The LED's in the switches how are you running power to them?

[cherrington17]

i was using the gray wire that goes into each switch. its power to the bulb. for interior illumination. but for some reason, some work, and others don't.


i also figured, if i changed the outside ones, i'd have the change the HVAC ones... and after looking at them, it'd be too much work to do... so i'm scrapping that project. (plus, w/ my door speakers out for replacement, my doors will be off for like 2 weeks. :lol: )



but thanks alot for the help man. you and cliff really saved my ass on this one!

[Alerosaint]

he'll be back....gremlins always come back

[cherrington17]

if it does... it'll be for something completely unrelated.... its sad, that the majority of the work i've done on my car (from things going wrong) are completely from my own doing. :lol:

[lonnie]

if it does... it'll be for something completely unrelated.... its sad, that the majority of the work i've done on my car (from things going wrong) are completely from my own doing. :lol::lol: :lol: :lol: