3.4l v6 with LZE 3500 VVT heads??!?!

[oldskid33]

hey new to the forum .. been payin for it to my folks :) and i'm about read for the mod fest to begin . i don't know much never had the engine apart. well i was reading the up on different v6 engines to see what i could do to kick up the power and i notice the top end swap kit from milzy motorsports and i was curious if the top end of the LZE would fite with out any problems? Don't hate me cuz i don't know :) I'm a quick learner.


Keith

[WhiteV6]

The LX9 is the version you want for a 3400. The VVT engines have larger cylinders, and the heads are wider (deeper?). The valves would hit the 3400 cylinder bore and the heads would hang over. I think we have pics, or at least a discussion on 60degreev6.com.

The LX9 top end is seriously bad ass for the 3400.

[Midgear]

The LX9 top end is seriously bad ass for the 3400.

LX9 top swap? :blink: would that work?

edit: im dumb, i was thinking of something else- and i was like "holy crap!" but its the 3500 that these guys are talkin about. i think.

[WhiteV6]

Yup, it is what I used on the 12.4:1 compression engine I built for a customer. Ive done a lot of flowbench work on these engines and the 3500 heads impressed the hell out of me, both for flow, and design.

[Midgear]

stage 2 heads < 3500 heads?

[WhiteV6]

What are stage 2 heads?

[Midgear]

What are stage 2 heads?

thought you were one of the milzy motorsports people lol

"Stage 2 - Full port and polish, port-matching the intake runners, D-shaping/re-angling of exhaust ports, significant bowl work, correcting the short side radius, polished cc-matched combustion chambers


Race Valve Job (9-angle Intake, radiused Exhaust)
CC-matched combustion chambers
stainless steel swirl-polished under-cut valves in OEM diameter
Comp Cams valve springs (128lbs at install height), Comp Cams retainers, and Comp Cams keepers
bronze valve guide liners
new Viton valve seals
assembled and toleranced
clearanced for safe lifts up to .560" "

those are the stage 2 heads from milzymotorsports.com

[WhiteV6]

No, Check my sig. WOT-Tech.com is my site. I have offered the TCE parts much longer than MMS, but MMS gets the sticky...:P

Stock 3500 heads own most ported 3400 heads. You don't need my opinion on the MMS parts specifically.

[Midgear]

hmm.. i think some research and comparison is in order- between the 3400 stage 2 and the 3500 heads

[BlackJack]

All depends on the individual's idea of the word "Stage (whatever)".

I've seen alot of people say that stage "2" 3400 flows better than stock 3500, but the ported 3500 leaves the 3400 in the dust. Others say 3500 stock is better than 3400 ported.

Until there are flow bench numbers to compare, and a standard for porting, it's all personal opinion.

[WhiteV6]

I have plenty of flow numbers. Flow numbers won't tell you everything. It won' tell you the exhaust runner is better for velocity. It won't tell you the 3500 intake port is raised compared to the 3400, or that it has a fin in the bowl area where there is usually a carbon streak on the older 60V6 heads.

Dynomation takes some of this into account, and it says 3500 destroys the 3400.

My street/strip heads and 1280 cam with similar mods to the MMS stage 2 car (other than 62mm vs the 65 mms was using), put down 10 more whp. I know how good my ported 3400 heads are, because of the amount of research I do, and number of heads I ruined in my quest to do the best. Knowing this, why would I use ported 3500 heads (mild porting, which I charge less for than doing the SS 3400 heads), with ported 3500 upper and lower? Because its better.

The upper intake for the 3500 flows worse than the 3400 upper...unless you port it. Perhaps that is what you are reading?

[BlackJack]

very possible. at the end of the day however, there are too many variables involved in the total setup to make a blanket statement. Cam, total intake path, exhaust configuration, etc. works together as a total package to provide the ultimate flow velocity. That's why some of the big-name V8 companies offer cam/intake packages.

[MilzyZ34]

I can't speak for other company's Stage 2 heads, but here is the comparison between our Stage 2 3400 heads and stock 3500 heads ...

Lift % diff (negative means 3500 flows better at this lift)

0.200 -12.990
.300 -12.100
.400 -4.100
.450 1.120
.500 6.140
.550 9.550
.600 11.690
.650 10.350

.200 -1.630
.300 -2.400
.400 10.530
.450 11.990
.500 13.380
.550 14.010
.600 15.080
.650 15.71

As you can see the 3500's fall off after .450" lift. So they are great for a stock cam, but for a higher lift cam, there are better options than stock 3500 heads. .400" and below is also where the 3500 heads outflow the 3400 heads, as much as 27% at low lift. Above this lift, the difference is much less ... with the 3500's advantage tapering from 7% to -1%. All in all the 3500's flow pretty well, but I wouldn't say they flow better than any ported 3400 heads. They couldn't touch our Stage 3's.

[WhiteV6]

What bore size is on your flowbench. That is crucial information that you have never shared. Without a true engine bore, you aren't getting real world flow. Funny how your flow numbers are comparable to newer V8 heads, but with the much smaller valves of the 3400...

Also, your idea of what flow/lift matters differs greatly with mine. We have been through that before though. You don't flow below .200 lift...nearly half of a stock cam.

Flow isn't everything. Your stage 3 heads have no intake or exhaust velocity. I own a flowbench, and have done over 800 flowtests on 60V6 heads. I am quite cetain stock 3500 heads will outperform your stage 3 setup. Of course I wouldn't leave everything else stock, but the heads themselves would be unmodified.

Blackjack, I totally agree on the total package. I have speced everything to make those simulations. I can make a blanket statement that 3500>3400, because we aren't comparing different motors. We are talking using 3500 heads on a 3400 vs 3400 heads.

[MilzyZ34]

What bore size is on your flowbench. That is crucial information that you have never shared. Without a true engine bore, you aren't getting real world flow. Funny how your flow numbers are comparable to newer V8 heads, but with the much smaller valves of the 3400...

Also, your idea of what flow/lift matters differs greatly with mine. We have been through that before though. You don't flow below .200 lift...nearly half of a stock cam.

Flow isn't everything. Your stage 3 heads have no intake or exhaust velocity. I own a flowbench, and have done over 800 flowtests on 60V6 heads. I am quite cetain stock 3500 heads will outperform your stage 3 setup. Of course I wouldn't leave everything else stock, but the heads themselves would be unmodified.

Blackjack, I totally agree on the total package. I have speced everything to make those simulations. I can make a blanket statement that 3500>3400, because we aren't comparing different motors. We are talking using 3500 heads on a 3400 vs 3400 heads.

Ben, what heads were on that 222whp car, 3400 or 3500?

[WhiteV6]

3400 Street/Strip

[MilzyZ34]

3400 Street/Strip

That's cool. I'm not taking away from your record for a mild 3400 NA dyno, but it would be cool if sometime we could each put a car on the same dyno or go to the same track, so we can compare apples to apples.

[WhiteV6]

I agree.

[Bad99Olds]

as a non involved party, i absolutely agree... times talk and well.. yea we know the rest

[Redog]

What about the stage 2 3500 upper end swap (manis, heads) with all the goodies that Milzy has in his stage 2 preformance package?

I still like the Milzy stage 2 top end, but if I could swap the manis and heads to a 3500 and have better results... :D

[WhiteV6]

IMO, there is no such thing as stage 2 3500 heads. Well, you could, but from what I have done, it would cost triple of what I recommend for NA, and the end result is a ruined head for performance other than boost. My boost 3400 head (stage 3?) is not for NA use and does outflow the 3500 head. However, its not just at peak lift level for most performance 60V6 cams.

The 3500 head's best attribute is velocity. Velocity is what gets that extra bit of air/fuel into the cylinder, and it is also what helps scavenge the exhaust out of the cylinder. Sure, much more to it than that, but I don't want to compare the whole motor right now or everything that effects these events. More flow with a smaller diameter, and at the lift points for peak piston velocity = more efficient. Better gas milage and more power...what more do you want:P

[BlackJack]

well, I'm just happy overall that at least two of the major vendors are making a presence here on Aleromod. All this talk will surely get some people drooling to make some performance upgrades, which is what the Alero community severely needs, and will certainly benefit all the vendors in the long run.

[Bad99Olds]

BJ your dead on, my performance plans got taken off the back burner and will be starting up here in the next few weeks due in large part to the thread

[BlackJack]

BJ your dead on, my performance plans got taken off the back burner and will be starting up here in the next few weeks due in large part to the thread

Excellent buddy.....I'm seriously glad to hear that.

P.S. - just make sure and do plenty of research and reading before committing to a plan.

[Bad99Olds]

absolutely, im still kind of up in the air regrding what avenue i pursue, seems like the more reading i do the more indecisive i get

[WhiteV6]

It never ends, trust me. I started modding my 3.1 grand prix in 98 and look where that lead me:P 60DegreeV6.com and then my own business. Pretty sure its the same for MMS, only starting with the 3800 and then upgrading to 60V6s:) Im heavily biased towards these engines if you didn't know.

[oldskid33]

Wow glad i sparked ppl to make their engines more kick ass!! but i'm kinda disappointed that i couldn't put the VVT on it oh well looks like i just wait a couple more years and swap the whole d*** thing! :):):) oh darn right haha

keith

[BlackJack]

It never ends, trust me. I started modding my 3.1 grand prix in 98 and look where that lead me:P

Know what you mean. I started on here with "I got a CAI....woohoo...look at me!!"

Holy crap you can dig yourself in deep fast.

[jackal2000]

absolutely, im still kind of up in the air regrding what avenue i pursue, seems like the more reading i do the more indecisive i get

if you ever get your lazy ass over here to hear my car i know you will be sold on modding the hell out of it. ;)

just dont forget that with serious modding comes serious tuning.

[MilzyZ34]

IMO, there is no such thing as stage 2 3500 heads. Well, you could, but from what I have done, it would cost triple of what I recommend for NA, and the end result is a ruined head for performance other than boost. My boost 3400 head (stage 3?) is not for NA use and does outflow the 3500 head. However, its not just at peak lift level for most performance 60V6 cams.

The 3500 head's best attribute is velocity. Velocity is what gets that extra bit of air/fuel into the cylinder, and it is also what helps scavenge the exhaust out of the cylinder. Sure, much more to it than that, but I don't want to compare the whole motor right now or everything that effects these events. More flow with a smaller diameter, and at the lift points for peak piston velocity = more efficient. Better gas milage and more power...what more do you want:P


Our Stage 3 heads overtake the 3500 heads at around .325 lift. The 3500 heads have a slight gain below this lift, but pretty close to equal (4% or less).

[Bad99Olds]

if you ever get your lazy ass over here to hear my car i know you will be sold on modding the hell out of it. ;)

just dont forget that with serious modding comes serious tuning.

hahaa im working on it.. working weekends is a huge kill joy, but deffinitly plan on getting up there soon

[MilzyZ34]

It never ends, trust me. I started modding my 3.1 grand prix in 98 and look where that lead me:P 60DegreeV6.com and then my own business. Pretty sure its the same for MMS, only starting with the 3800 and then upgrading to 60V6s:) Im heavily biased towards these engines if you didn't know.

Yeah i basically started the same way, modding my '99 Z34. I started making some exhaust products for the 95-99 Monte Carlos at first, got the car down to like a 14.2 sec 1/4 about 5 years ago with my NA setup. During this time i was making 3800 engine parts like cylinder heads, and decided to get into the base-model Monte Carlo 3100's which then lead to the 3400's in other GM vehicles. A year later i did a 3800 Supercharged swap into my car, and then the mod bug really hit. Since I graduated with my mechanical engineering degree in 2004, I've been running this business full time, and much of the emphasis of my business has gone towards the 60degree engines, mostly because the aftermarket was not as developed, but I still do a lot of 3800 work also.

[Midgear]

look at all this information.. lol

[BigStribS]

:popcorn:

[WhiteV6]

All in all the 3500's flow pretty well, but I wouldn't say they flow better than any ported 3400 heads. They couldn't touch our Stage 3's.

Our Stage 3 heads overtake the 3500 heads at around .325 lift. The 3500 heads have a slight gain below this lift, but pretty close to equal (4% or less).

So you only consider flow past .325 when you say the stock 3500 heads can't touch your stage 3? Even with .600 lift, you have half of your lift flowing less than a stock 3500 head.

My boost heads outflow the 3500 intake ports at every lift point from .050 to .600.

That's cool. I'm not taking away from your record for a mild 3400 NA dyno

So 222whp from a "mild" 3400, and your stage 3 put down 227whp. Im just questioning your choice of words, thats all.

[MilzyZ34]

So you only consider flow past .325 when you say the stock 3500 heads can't touch your stage 3? Even with .600 lift, you have half of your lift flowing less than a stock 3500 head.

My boost heads outflow the 3500 intake ports at every lift point from .050 to .600.



So 222whp from a "mild" 3400, and your stage 3 put down 227whp. Im just questioning your choice of words, thats all.



What I said was that they flow about equal (0-4% difference below .325 lift, with the greatest difference being at low lift) until around .325" lift, where my Stage 3 heads pull a considerable gain on the 3500's. Do your boost heads flow 290+cfm?

I congradulated you on your 222whp. It's a very impressive number. On our dyno, we made 211whp with Tim Kaczun's Stage 2 car with 140k miles on it, 90k miles since the Stage 2 parts were installed. Why are we 11whp shy of your 222? It could be a number of things: we could just have 11 less hp, the 2.5" press-bent exhaust Tim has may be restricting us, the variance in the dyno's could allow for some inaccuracy, perhaps you locked the torque converter up to increase the numbers, or it could be a weather/humidity thing ... who knows. Until we actually measure it with the same tool, there will always be room for argument. The only thing I can say about where I dyno is that I take every single car I dyno there and so do a lot of other GM V6 guys around here, including Intense Racing. It's become the benchmark dyno for us, where we can quantitively measure a car's performance. The 227whp was one of our preliminary passes, and I've covered that before. It is a good amount at the wheels, but trust me there is room for improvement with the replacement of some of the restrictive parts. We'll just have to see what the future holds for a Stage 3 car, but I'm shooting for 240-250whp.

[billytheman1188]

WOW, great thread! A lot of good information here, keep it up guys!:coolio:

[WhiteV6]

Do your boost heads flow 290+cfm?

Funny you ask. hell no they don't. The day you tell me what bore your bench uses is the day I take any of your numbers past .350 lift seriously. Funny that it is the exact point that the valve is now past the combustion chamber. hmmm.

Why is it that V8 heads with over 2" intake valves barely flow better, or in some cases equal to your 3400 stage 3 head? Doesn't add up.

For those that don't know flowbenches, you need to simulate the engine, with the cylinder bore. This shrouds the valve, restricting flow. If you run an open box or a much larger bore, you create less restriction, which boosts flow numbers. I did testing on a honda 450 TRX quad head, by flipping the head around on the bench. This put the intake valves dead center. Flow increased considerably.

[Mr_Reed]

damn, some good information being put out we need a thread like this on Turbo charging the 3400.

[Bad99Olds]

damn, some good information being put out we need a thread like this on Turbo charging the 3400.

motion seconded

[MilzyZ34]

Funny you ask. hell no they don't. The day you tell me what bore your bench uses is the day I take any of your numbers past .350 lift seriously. Funny that it is the exact point that the valve is now past the combustion chamber. hmmm.

Why is it that V8 heads with over 2" intake valves barely flow better, or in some cases equal to your 3400 stage 3 head? Doesn't add up.

For those that don't know flowbenches, you need to simulate the engine, with the cylinder bore. This shrouds the valve, restricting flow. If you run an open box or a much larger bore, you create less restriction, which boosts flow numbers. I did testing on a honda 450 TRX quad head, by flipping the head around on the bench. This put the intake valves dead center. Flow increased considerably.

We use the correct bore size for our flowbench work, so stop making excuses why you can't keep up. If the numbers were flawed after .350" lift as you claim, wouldn't the 3500 heads show the same trend in our testing? Or are you claiming we flow the heads in different ways to skew the numbers?

Our Stage 3 3800 Supercharged heads use 1.90" intake valves, and flow 245 cfm max. Our Stage 3 3400 heads have smaller valves, yet flow considerably more. there is more to headflow than just valve diameter.

[WhiteV6]

We use the correct bore size for our flowbench work, so stop making excuses why you can't keep up. If the numbers were flawed after .350" lift as you claim, wouldn't the 3500 heads show the same trend in our testing? Or are you claiming we flow the heads in different ways to skew the numbers?

Our Stage 3 3800 Supercharged heads use 1.90" intake valves, and flow 245 cfm max. Our Stage 3 3400 heads have smaller valves, yet flow considerably more. there is more to headflow than just valve diameter.

Who cares about iron head 3800 heads? We all know they suck for flow.

http://www.airflowresearch.com/205_mongoose.php

"AFR’s LS1 cylinder head offers unmatched flow performance (298 CFM at .600lift) and features 2.020 intake and 1.600 exhaust valves with AFR’s iron ductile interlocking valve seats"

Congrats, you are basically CNC ported LS1 head flow with your stage 3 3400 heads. Your stage 2 heads outflow my street strip, so why can't you make more power?

Your intake manifolds don't support 290CFM, so I think you wasted your time.

[MilzyZ34]

Who cares about iron head 3800 heads? We all know they suck for flow.

http://www.airflowresearch.com/205_mongoose.php

"AFR’s LS1 cylinder head offers unmatched flow performance (298 CFM at .600lift) and features 2.020 intake and 1.600 exhaust valves with AFR’s iron ductile interlocking valve seats"

Congrats, you are basically CNC ported LS1 head flow with your stage 3 3400 heads. Your stage 2 heads outflow my street strip, so why can't you make more power?

Your intake manifolds don't support 290CFM, so I think you wasted your time.

I think I covered the power difference in my last post.

We'll just see what this year brings, but I'm looking forward to the challenge.

[Redog]

Come on guys.

You are both giving us a lot of infomation and we like what we are learning, but be nice. I don't wanna have to close this thread ;)

[WhiteV6]

http://24hoursoflemons.com/

How about that?

[WhiteV6]

Yeah, im sure we can resolve our differences over some racing.

[MilzyZ34]

Yeah, im sure we can resolve our differences over some racing.

sounds like fun to me.

[blueolds01]

well im sold!
name the time and place you guys are goin at it and ill be there to watch!

[Midgear]

holy crap, when i said some research and comparison is in order, these guys took it seriously. this is great! didnt mean to cause an argument though :lol:

[Bad99Olds]

competition breeds innovation, which breeds perfection... good job midgear, you may be the cause of the perfect all motor 3400 engine.. haha

[BlackJack]

holy crap, when i said some research and comparison is in order, these guys took it seriously. this is great! didnt mean to cause an argument though :lol:

Nice part is, you don't have to go looking for the research, it's being brought to you.

[oldskid33]

lol all this take of CAI and exhaust :)i better get on these haha but all to get to 105 faster? how do u get rid of the damn speed limiter cuz i know that engine can go faster :):)

[oldskid33]

a Rave u Better tape it .

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY kings of alero performance square off. shall be a great race!!

[WhiteV6]

http://www.mpracing.org/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=107

hehe, product ID 107. Thats my favorite number.

[Midgear]

Nice part is, you don't have to go looking for the research, it's being brought to you.

x2 <enter random text here to have enough characters to make the post>

[chevymuscle218]

hate to dig up an old thread, but was there ever any racing? Haha you guys should go on pinks. Also, when you do a 3500 top swap, do you have to use the manifold off the 3500 or just the lower?

[WhiteV6]

3500 heads, lower, upper. 3500 lower only bolts to the 3500 heads. The upper can go on either 3400 or 3500 lower however but that is a plenum swap, not a 3500 top end swap.

My car hasn't had an engine or transmission in it for almost 2 years now so no, I wasn't racing anyone. Milzy can tell you what he did for racing. I don't have the time or money to do personal stuff. My customers however, have had some great results from 2008 and this year should be even better now that more are getting their builds together.

[kwhauck]

from my understanding your options are just the 3500 UIM, or the entire 3500 top end (head, LIM, UIM)

[WhiteV6]

Yup, or the easier to deal with 3500 heads, 3500 lower, 3400 upper. Looks like stock other than the coolant temp sensor is bolted to the rear head instead of the lower intake.

[kwhauck]

so did we ever clear up the issues

which is better extreme ported 3400 heads or extreme ported 3500 heads,

and for me specifically 15-25psi supercharged with a really high lift cam and a bunch of other stuff......which would be better, i haven't ordered my pistons yet, so the compression ratio isn't a big deal.......

[Redog]

Ben and WOT-Tech FTW!!! :D

[WhiteV6]

Extreme ported 3500 heads are mythical beasts. To put it in basic terms, the intake port opening at the gasket is smaller than the size of the intake valve, or about the size of the seat throat area.

That leaves you with the 3400 heads for all out boost performance. 3500 is still great for boost because they flow well out of the box but they just don't have the potential at the moment. Hard to say when they will, since its been 12 months since they should have been available. It takes a lot of porting for the 3400 heads to outflow the 3500 (street/strip is close, race/boost porting does it). Flowing heads without the manifolds is quite different than comparing with everthing attached.

For a supercharger cam, I only have 1. Its posted on my site and you can see with a stock motor that it takes away power compared to a stock cam until about 5500 RPM. Then it kicks ass. Someday I will have the rest of the simulations done and you can make more comparisons "on paper". I spent a lot of time trying different lobes and centerlines and lobe seperations. That cam is the only one that was close. On a modded motor its better than the stock engine shows so thats a plus:) You mentioned a high lift cam but really, you don't need it. The 3400 and 3500 heads both flow very well for intake/exhaust ratio. The 3500 is nearly 1:1 flow it with the manifolds on in stock form. I would stick with the stock cam unless you want to rev it past 5500, then I only have one other option.

[kwhauck]

We discussed it earlier on 60degree, i already have a cam and we decided on staying with the stock 1.7 rocker arms and using 3500 valves, maybe the new valves you are working on getting produced if they are done in time.......anyways......cam is

Comp Cams special order roller

230/242 @ .050 duration
280/294 @ .006 duration
.577/.577 lift. 115 LSA

[WhiteV6]

What is the ICL? Stock 3500 rockers are 1.6:1

[BlackJack]

Kyle, why do I smell something about to break for some reason (besides your wallet).

[kwhauck]

hmm that's a good question, and i hope nothing breaks, what do you think i am gonna break? (and my wallet has been broken longer than my motor!!!)

on a side note, I can't find my DAM SPEC CARD!!! guess i'll have to call the machine shop again!! damnit!!