Calling Speed Freaks, Doctors, Physicists

[kwhauck]

Ok so basically here is the deal, I am working on getting the Spearco W2A Intercooler Setup back on, I just got my new external water pump in the other day (Meziere WP136)

My specific pump does 20gpm, I am trying to figure out how fast water cools to room temperature so that I can make a real good estimate at the total size of the system I am going to run (intercooler, charge tank, heat exchanger, lines) or what kind of restrictor plate I need to put in the lines (don't really want to do that)

I need to figure out so that the water flows fast enough to keep temps down, but not so fast that the water never has a chance to cool down......

Yes, water is heavy but right now with a 12 gallon charge tank I am looking at a total setup with everything included to be about 15-18 gallons, any help would be great

Thanx, Kyle

[cherrington17]

how hot does the water get?

kinda makes a difference.

plus, the water is in contact w/ what kind of metal?

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by cherrington17+Jun 2 2006, 05:58 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cherrington17 @ Jun 2 2006, 05:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>how hot does the water get?

kinda makes a difference.

plus, the water is in contact w/ what kind of metal?
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[/b]

damn, i can't really test that, I mean I don't need to be super accurate

i guess 150 degrees at least probably 200, well it will be stainless steel 20gauge give or take 2 and the internals of the tank will be coated with synthetic truck bedliner........

Originally posted by kwhauck@Jun 2 2006, 06:00 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-cherrington17@Jun 2 2006, 05:58 PM
how hot does the water get?

kinda makes a difference.

plus, the water is in contact w/ what kind of metal?
Quoted post


damn, i can't really test that, I mean I don't need to be super accurate

i guess 150 degrees at least probably 200, well it will be stainless steel 20gauge give or take 2 and the internals of the tank will be coated with synthetic truck bedliner........
Quoted post
[/quote]

oh and the tank will get direct airflow as well from outside air for additional cooling

[cherrington17]

so... we're figuring 18 gallons of tap water, air cooling from 200F to about 60F? while being surrounded by stainless steel?

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by cherrington17@Jun 2 2006, 06:05 PM
so... we're figuring 18 gallons of tap water, air cooling from 200F to about 60F? while being surrounded by stainless steel?
Quoted post


water during summer yes..............

[cherrington17]

obviously the cooling would be faster during winter...

i would have done it myself but i don't have my physics book at school here... i never have to look at it, when i need to find L5... lol

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by cherrington17@Jun 2 2006, 06:11 PM
obviously the cooling would be faster during winter...

i would have done it myself but i don't have my physics book at school here... i never have to look at it, when i need to find L5... lol
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that and i'll have to run antifreeze during the winter......

[cherrington17]

which changes everything.... lol

[kwhauck]

well i am not looking for 100% accuracy, plus I won't be doing a lot of racing during the winter obviously

[cherrington17]

no... during winter the whole equation changes...

not the one we're working on.

[kwhauck]

well since I am confusing you lets throw this in there, I will be adding pure ice when I am racing at the track every two races or so.......

[cherrington17]

"pure ice"

.... going all out and using that pure stuff, eh? or do you just prefer pure to the artificial stuff..... :lol:

honestly i'm just killing time till prettyp finishes the work.... :thumb:

[ThePrettyPhysicist]

should take about 47 minutes

[ThePrettyPhysicist]

wait, that was before i saw that you were adding ice ... how much ice?

[ThePrettyPhysicist]

Let me explain this a little better - 47 minutes assumes that the ambient air temperature is around 70 degrees F. You can't cool the water any lower than the ambient air temperature - its not possible. So you won't be able to get the water to 60 degrees F for long unless it is 60 degrees F outside. If you are adding ice, theoretically, I need the atmospheric pressure where you are located and the total mass of the ice. The calculation would then require some extensive calculus. But since I'm sure that you don't really care about all of that, I would suggest an hour cooling time at least ....

[cherrington17]

would the car moving produce cooler air coming at the car?... kinda how the basis for CAIs?
*edit... works for me... i just wondered.... :P

[ThePrettyPhysicist]

moving does not create cooler air - the feeling of cooler air is caused by the air interacting more rapidly with moisture of the body. the air temperature is the same, moving or not. the reason for using moving air is because more air has an opportunity to interact with the fluid. air can cool water faster when it is moving because as the air "leaves" the container, it "takes" some of the heat with it and the more air, the more heat that "leaves" ... make any sense?

[Cliff8928]

Would it be better if you used alcohol instead of water? I know it doesn't freeze and it does have some cooling ability (that's what they used for antifreeze back in the day)

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by Cliff8928@Jun 3 2006, 12:23 AM
Would it be better if you used alcohol instead of water? I know it doesn't freeze and it does have some cooling ability (that's what they used for antifreeze back in the day)
Quoted post


possibly.......

[cherrington17]

probably alot more expensive though...

[eag182]

All these numbers are bull...there are so many factors considering the heat sources. This is one of those things that rely on guess and check.

[ThePrettyPhysicist]

my numbers were for an ideal case - of course in real life they won't be quite as accurate for many reasons:
1) you will NEVER find pure water
2) you will never find pure aluminum
3) water will begin to evaporate around 190 degrees F because of the pressure in the system and you dont know how much you lose

i would NOT recommend alcohol. remember, it is flammable and getting something flammable that hot can cause problems ...

[jackal]

i would definitly not use alcohol in an engine bay, also you have to factor in the heat that the engine is producing, it really is a guess and check.

[ThePrettyPhysicist]

Originally posted by jackal@Jun 4 2006, 04:04 PM
it really is a guess and check.
Quoted post


guess and check would probably be 100x easier to do than to actually factor in EVERYTHING and do the actual calculations. but i was asked for an estimate. an ideal situation would be 47 minutes. real life can fall anywhere from 1 hour to 3 hours ...

[kwhauck]

thank you for all you help, i have an educated guess to start from......

[springs fastest alero]

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/ic_techdata.htm
maybe this will help oh and your core part number is a 2-231

[BlackJack]

Originally posted by Cliff8928@Jun 3 2006, 12:23 AM
Would it be better if you used alcohol instead of water? I know it doesn't freeze and it does have some cooling ability (that's what they used for antifreeze back in the day)
Quoted post


And lets see how long your pump lasts running alc. through it.

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by BlackJack+Jun 25 2006, 03:12 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BlackJack @ Jun 25 2006, 03:12 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Cliff8928@Jun 3 2006, 12:23 AM
Would it be better if you used alcohol instead of water?Â;-) I know it doesn't freeze and it does have some cooling ability (that's what they used for antifreeze back in the day)
Quoted post


And lets see how long your pump lasts running alc. through it.
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[/b][/quote]

probably not too long, but i don't want to try it, my pump is too nice, plus it isn't needed, if i want I can always do alcohol injection later.....

[BlackJack]

if you want something that will help you to be able to run a little more timing and a little more boost, then consider something to cool your fuel more

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by BlackJack@Jun 28 2006, 04:42 PM
if you want something that will help you to be able to run a little more timing and a little more boost, then consider something to cool your fuel more
Quoted post


well, right now I have the 1.7 pulley which puts me at about 13-15lbs, can't really go any more on the supercharger, it is all about optimizing it and getting it to hold the power with other mods, until i get my turbo......