3400 W/ Manual Trans

[soupitup]

Just curious if anyone had swapped out their automatic for a manual on the 3400. I know the stock manual tranny in the 2.4's won't work, but I've heard that the new getrag tranny in the newer gm's will mate up to the 3400. I do plan on adding a turbo to the car this spring/summer, and I know that the stock auto is kind of a weak link when you start increasing HP, so I'd really like to make it a manual before I start doing the turbo setup. please let me know what kinds of problems I can run into, or if it's even possible. thanks.

[El Pablo]

i heard the maximum the auto trans can handle is 300 hp. thats just what i heard im still learning tho, if u pull off the manual trans lemme know :)

[Menace]

I want my car to have tiptronics

[derek_ski99]

they're not that fun menace, at least for me. my dad's audi s4 is just a simple 6speed manual, thats a lot of fun. i drove a DSG audi, (with the clutchless manual w/ tiptronic) and it just kinda lacked...very well made tranny just not as much fun as a regular manual

[kwhauck]

swap in a 65hd tranny from the GTP, they can handle daily driven 300whp with minimal to no mods......

[SilverBullet256]

yeah the whole doing a manual thing in our cars has definately been discussed and the only person i know who has actually put on in an alero with the 3400 is springsfastestalero and he is still woerking on his car and has put alot of work and money into doing it, you need to do custom mounts, the tranny itself costs alot, you need to get all the stuff like the shifter and poop from a manual 4 cyl alero, and then you need to do custom programming in your pcm, so the easiest way to get a strong tranny would be to get the 65hd from a gtp, and then get a pcm from an impala with the 3400 and the regular 65 tranny, that way the programming for the 3400 engine and the 65 hd tranny will already be programmed in

[BlackJack]

actually, my latest research has found that it is better to go ahead with the 4t45, because the 4t65 isn't going to be worth the hassle at all.

My build for this season that's going to be putting down ~450hp is more than likely going to only consist of a true LSD, clutches, and aluminum accumulator pistons, but that's because of what we found out GM did on '03 and later 4t45's was upgrade alot of the weak parts from the '02 and older.

(read the disclaimer "IF's")

IF your tranny is '03 and newer, and IF it has reasonably low mileage, then it SHOULD hold up to a moderate turbo build with relatively little investment compared to the manual or 4t65 conversion.

true LSD = ~$600
Raybestos Blueplate Specials (clutches) = ~$200
aluminum accumulator pistons under $100
performance torque converter ~$250

BUT, you also have to use a PowrTuner to set your line pressures and torque management to be able to do this.

In the end, much less hassle and money to do the whole setup.

[Cliff8928]

It's definitely a fun ride! However, the easiest trans to swap into the Alero that bolts up to the 3400 might not be the best for handling the power. The M94 Getrag trans from the 00-02 2.2 J-Bodies with the 2200 4-cylinder bolts right up to the engine and should bolt into the mounts on the car. However it originally only had to cope with a fairly low-tech low-power 2.2.

Should mine ever get written off, I'm definitely going to find me a sport-red or steel-gray GLS Coupe and swap in a 5-speed.

[BlackJack]

cool, now how are you going to handle the programming....such as, torque management based on gear, rpm, fueling, all interacting to decide how the tranny needs to act.

[soupitup]

what do you mean by "how the trans needs to act"? it would be a manual trans. My buddy is a GM small car guru, that will be helping me out on this. As far as the ECU flashing/reprogramming, he has access to all the necessary equipment to take care of that part. He'll also be helping me out with the turbo setup as soon as he's done turboing his dad's fiero with a 3400. Hey the guy turboed his Z24, and ran a 12-sec 1/4-mile time on a stock engine, so I have high hopes for my ride. The interior parts are no biggie. there's a manual alero in the junkyard near here that I can steal parts from. thanks for the info, and if you have more to add lemme know, cuz this is GONNA happen, one way or another.

[BlackJack]

sorry, mis-worded. I meant the opposite. Your fueling, air, timing etc. is affected by gearing, rpms, load, torque effects, etc. It's not so simple as just deleting those values because it's a manual transmission. And I may be wrong, but a buddy of mine is a tech at the GM dealership also, and he does PCM flash back to stock configuration. That we know of, you'd have to get a PCM from a vehicle that came with a 3400/manual vehicle in order to make it work. Then you're going to get into rewiring issues, etc....

Nevermind, I'm going to butt out of this whole topic and let you find out the hard way.

-peace-

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by BlackJack@Mar 21 2006, 08:09 PM
actually, my latest research has found that it is better to go ahead with the 4t45, because the 4t65 isn't going to be worth the hassle at all.

My build for this season that's going to be putting down ~450hp is more than likely going to only consist of a true LSD, clutches, and aluminum accumulator pistons, but that's because of what we found out GM did on '03 and later 4t45's was upgrade alot of the weak parts from the '02 and older.

(read the disclaimer "IF's")

IF your tranny is '03 and newer, and IF it has reasonably low mileage, then it SHOULD hold up to a moderate turbo build with relatively little investment compared to the manual or 4t65 conversion.

true LSD = ~$600
Raybestos Blueplate Specials (clutches) = ~$200
aluminum accumulator pistons under $100
performance torque converter ~$250

BUT, you also have to use a PowrTuner to set your line pressures and torque management to be able to do this.

In the end, much less hassle and money to do the whole setup.
Quoted post


450 whp or crank, even at crank i would be surprised to see what you have listed hold that power

the 65 tranny is a much better tranny with a huge aftermarket, look at GMs build book for their 900hp (something insane like that) race cobalt, it is running a 65HD Tranny (with part numbers for the buildup :heehee: )

numbers for me: $400 65HD tranny
$150 extra subframe to fab on
$100 misc little things to get it to fit

It will hold 300whp daily driven with little or no modifcations, from their on with GM warranty backed parts the future is endless for teh 65HD tranny

Oh another note, if you go get that number, how you gonna put it to the ground cuz you are gonna need a stiff ass suspension to even have a chance at gripping.......

[Wayfastwhittie]

Find a wrecked G6 GTP 6 speed and swap out the front sub frame or even just swap out motor, trans and cumputer and there you have 6 speed alero

[BlackJack]

In advance, sorry for these guys jacking your thread, soupy.

That 4t65 transplant is going to cost WAY more than the figures you're quoting, just to get it installed. Consider also that you need another 400-500 for custom cut axles, are going to have to completely rewire your front-end harness, etc.....it's alot more than just fabbing a crossmember and dropping it in.

the tranny I'm building will hold 450hp for this season. NEXT season is the one I have to worry about when I jump to 600.

Suspension isn't a problem to get traction. Aircraft cables are tying down the front end at the shocks to limit upward suspension travel, and also to keep the drive axle geometry as close to 90* as possible during launch. These snap in and out by removable locator pins so I can put them in or take em out in under 5 minutes. Heavy springs and blocks are used in the rear to keep it from squatting. Together, this keeps the weight over the front end. After that it's just a matter of going to all performance bushings and getting drag radials or slicks. Go back and watch the ZZP Gran Prix video on the launch, they're using the same setup. No biggie, pretty simple.

[Cliff8928]

For starters, I know a few people who have swapped out 5-speeds on 3100 cars with no issues, just make the PCM think it's in low gear or reverse. Not even a check-engine light! But that's with a 4T60, the 4T45 is probably a little smarter than that, and I'd imagine you might be able to modify something with a DHP or HPTuner programmer.

The 6-speed in the G6 is absolutely MASSIVE! i doubt that it would fit in the Alero without extensive modification.

The PCM would most likely cope with a manual trans fairly well.. It still knows how much load etc. because of all the sensor data (MAP, MAF, TPS, O2, etc..) If it did anything, it'd probably be like "WTF, where's the trans" and default to an electrical signal for 2nd gear which is what most do for a limp-home mode.

[BlackJack]

another good point, yes it will start and drive, but wont run correctly,....if you recall, limp home mode isn't exactly optimal values. It's set up to "save the damaged components" basically. Which in the later PCM setups it's telling the engine to back off of the timing and fueling tables to reduce torque.

I dont get into all the big technical terms because not all of our following here are familiar with them. (including me on some points)

[SilverBullet256]

so you are saying that the 03 and up 4t45's are built stronger and could handle say 7 lb's of sc boost, headers, 2.5 cat back, and pcm, which would roughly get idk im taking a shot in the dark 270-280 hp, would it be able to handle that?

[BlackJack]

yes, and that's depending on your driving habits. If you drive like every stoplight is a staging tree, then ANY transmission is gonna cave in. If you drive moderately (not sheepishly) and only hit it hard once in a while, I think a stock 03^ tranny will handle 7psi without much problem.

However, keep in mind, you're saying S/C. My experience is with research in turbo applications. S/C has immediate low RPM torque which launch is where your tranny takes most of it's abuse. A turbo builds boost progressively, so as long as you aren't power-braking off the line, a 4t45 will work fine with a hairdryer at low boost levels.

[SilverBullet256]

well either way an 03 with less miles than my 01 will last alot longer with the scenario i said

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by BlackJack@Mar 22 2006, 06:36 PM
1. 400-500 for custom cut axles?
2. are going to have to completely rewire your front-end harness
3. the tranny I'm building will hold 450hp for this season. NEXT season is the one I have to worry about when I jump to 600.
4. Suspension isn't a problem to get traction. Aircraft cables are tying down the front end at the shocks to limit upward suspension travel, and also to keep the drive axle geometry as close to 90* as possible during launch. These snap in and out by removable locator pins so I can put them in or take em out in under 5 minutes. Heavy springs and blocks are used in the rear to keep it from squatting. Together, this keeps the weight over the front end. After that it's just a matter of going to all performance bushings and getting drag radials or slicks. Go back and watch the ZZP Gran Prix video on the launch, they're using the same setup. No biggie, pretty simple.
Quoted post


1. not if i have connections
2. free to do myself
3. :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: i'll believe it when i see it
4. not a bad idea maybe i'll check it out

[BlackJack]

hahahah, man (or woman) as the case may be....that's how advancements are made, you strive to achieve what other narrowminded people laugh at or say can't be done.

That's why germ has taken the 3400 to 15psi when everybody said you can't go past 12. And mysteriously, his transmission held when it was supposed to go boom. You forget, alot of people have blown their stuff up because they dont know how to tune, or make stupid mistakes with mechanicals.

P.S. - Laughing is only authorized if you have some concept of what you're talking about, which disqualifies you. Sorry to be rude, but I think you asked for it here.

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by BlackJack@Mar 24 2006, 05:21 PM
hahahah, man (or woman) as the case may be....that's how advancements are made, you strive to achieve what other narrowminded people laugh at or say can't be done.

That's why germ has taken the 3400 to 15psi when everybody said you can't go past 12. And mysteriously, his transmission held when it was supposed to go boom. You forget, alot of people have blown their stuff up because they dont know how to tune, or make stupid mistakes with mechanicals.

P.S. - Laughing is only authorized if you have some concept of what you're talking about, which disqualifies you. Sorry to be rude, but I think you asked for it here.
Quoted post


i'm not saying it can't be done, I just won't believe it until I see it with my own eyes

i never said the 3400 couldn't be taken past 12, I have personally seen Mike (sc/alero) push his setup for months at 15psi

and yes, most people blow up their stuff because they don't know how to tune, the alero block will take 400hp fine, the tranny has always been the weak point

and I asked for it? maybe, thats ok though most people that know me would say i'm an opinionated asshole :cool:

good luck with your build though, i'll be right with you with my twincharged 65hd setup...... :heehee:

[BlackJack]

it would be very nice to see the build progress on it. Best of luck to you. (see? you can think someone is full of poop and still be polite.)

[springs fastest alero]

Tejohnson from grand am gt has done extensive work to the 45 and is still breaking things including the limited slip diff.
honestly if your pushing SERIOUS power the 45 is a waste of time
the 65 has been built to 1300 hp and 7 second quarter miles. for the weight and cost difference its easier to go with something that has been proven and was not designed as a throw away transmission (there is a reason the 45 does not has a dip stick) the connections for kwhauck to get the swap done are there. not to mention for the previous research we did the pinouts on the wiring are the same from the people we have talked to. GM likes to keep things simple. yes some values will have to be changed for shift points etc but nothing major when you have the software to make such changes. so it comes down to custom axles which will not cost anywhere near 400-500. and some subframe work which is also not an issue when you have a spare to play with and a few fabrication tools.

I can have custom axles made for about 200. (hade them done for a GTP swap on a 98 Grand am) it really wont cost as much as you think and getting a 65 to hold the power will be way easier and cheaper than trying to beef up the 45.

[springs fastest alero]

and to take the thread back
as for doing a manual
the g6 trans was not out yet when I started my project. I'm sure it will fit but they are expensive and hard to come by.
my base trans was 250 to my door and will hold what most will throw at it
as for my goals some work had to be done and I have about 2500 in the gearbox not counting the stage 4 clutch. however it would take some work to break it now.
you could say I went overkill but my whole project is becoming that.
as for the computer. dhp said they could tune for a manual but with the direction I'm taking with this car the stock computer was going to hold me back
so I chose the path of a stand alone engine control (electromotive TEC3) not the easiest way and definitely not the cheapest but in the long run it will be better for me.

anyway the average person could prolly pull off the swap for as cheap as 1,000 if you have connections and do your own work. and the price can go up from there depending on what you have done for you.
but overall its not near as hard as some may think.
my reason for doing it was simple. after converted its cheaper to replace parts on a manual. then of course the more fun to drive and all that comes into play.

[BlackJack]

Originally posted by springs fastest alero@Mar 26 2006, 03:41 PM
the 65 has been built to 1300 hp and 7 second quarter miles.

I can have custom axles made for about 200. (hade them done for a GTP swap on a 98 Grand am) it really wont cost as much as you think and getting a 65 to hold the power will be way easier and cheaper than trying to beef up the 45.
Quoted post


point one: not on an average person's budget. True if you have unlimited resources, such as GM's racing team.

point two: I'll be contacting you shortly to see if I can have some made through you then, cuz most people I've talked to have quoted way higher.

That combined with the other expenses of the swap is what's swaying most people away from it.

[SweetNLow]

Originally posted by BlackJack@Mar 23 2006, 07:24 PM
yes, and that's depending on your driving habits. If you drive like every stoplight is a staging tree, then ANY transmission is gonna cave in.
Quoted post


haha u mustve seen me drive befor..........

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by BlackJack@Mar 26 2006, 03:42 PM


point one: not on an average person's budget. True if you have unlimited resources, such as GM's racing team.

point two: I'll be contacting you shortly to see if I can have some made through you then, cuz most people I've talked to have quoted way higher.

That combined with the other expenses of the swap is what's swaying most people away from it.
Quoted post


point one is that it is capable of that kind of power

building a 45 will cost money too.
if you want to go fast you have to pay to play.

and the average person doesnt build and race an alero.
also slp offered a built 65 for like 2400 at one time rated at 450 or so.
many other grand prix performance parts sites still offer upgraded transmissions at about what it would cost to beef up a 45. also gm puts out a manual on the 65 on how to beef it up for different power levels
they did the resurch for you and show you exactly what they did.




send core axles off the alero and buildible axles off a gtp and I can get them built to fit the alero. the cores are becoming readily available in the junk yard fairly cheap.

[BlackJack]

John, I have to call bullpoop on this one. Since it's so easy to do, obviously that's why everyone is doing it. Especially since everyone's 3400 boosted limitations have been the transmission...

Something doesn't jive here. Show me one example of someone that has made it work so far. Yeah, I know, alot of people have messed with attempting it, but no go so far as I have seen.

Keep in mind, I'm talking about a daily driver, not a full on drag car. I could do that one easily. I want to see what can be done for the average person.

[tejohnson]

yeah yeah yeah....


Ok, so I have pushed the limits of the 45e. And I will continue to do so because I do actually have a glimmer of hope. From the latest job, it was not because I "had" to, it was because I "wanted" to. 2nd gear was worn beyond what we preferred, so we are taking the 45 to a little bit of a new level for the 1-2 shift. I intend to share more information soon, but I like to actually test before I speak towards something being fact. So far, the fact is the 45e can handle a lot with a pretty minor rebuild. Not everybody has bragging rights to 345 torque to the wheels with a 45e ;) I have no clue what I will be pushing this season, but I feel the 45e will be able to handle it. Further, I even intend to do yet another inspection of the internal components after the fact. In short, time will tell.

Otherwise, folks can move forward on something that has already be done. I have no issues with that, what so ever. However, if we can support what we are given, why choose a harder path?

For updates, see the following to track the latest rebuild:

http://groomlakelabs.com/?q=gallery&g2_vie...&g2_itemId=1853 (http://groomlakelabs.com/?q=gallery&g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=1853)

[xonelith]

I hafta agree with tejohnson on this one. He's the only one that has actually done anything with the 45e.

I'm debating about a 65 swap myself, but am keeping a keen eye on what todd is doing, as it may sway my decision (I'm no where near the power he is running).

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by BlackJack@Mar 26 2006, 07:57 PM
John, I have to call bullpoop on this one.Â;-) Since it's so easy to do, obviously that's why everyone is doing it.Â;-) Especially since everyone's 3400 boosted limitations have been the transmission...

Something doesn't jive here.Â;-) Show me one example of someone that has made it work so far.Â;-) Yeah, I know, alot of people have messed with attempting it, but no go so far as I have seen.

Keep in mind, I'm talking about a daily driver, not a full on drag car.Â;-) I could do that one easily.Â;-) I want to see what can be done for the average person.
Quoted post



actually the drag car is harder than a daily driver due to tuning, the amount of power and the fact the car is beat on all the time.

anyway call bs on what ever you want.
the swap will be done and will be done for a reasonable price.
why is it not done yet?
well lets see... how many are seriously pushing the limits of the n-body
Id say a handful at best are really pushing them and each have chosen their own path.
I looked at the 65 before any parts were even available for the 45.
but honestly I didn't want an automatic in my car. so I stopped R&D on the 65 and turned towards the manual (which if you have forgotten is what this thread is about)
Quite honestly if people did some R&D and found out that it is lots easier than most think then maybe more would do it. but like I said most have chosen their own path and want to try their own things

[tejohnson]

I like what your doing John, and the thing is, you are actually "doing" it, which I fully respect. Thing is, with the 45e, not many at all have actually done some research and "acted" on beefing it up. Further, hardly anyone at all has moved forward to try something new, tear it down to eval, and go at it again. That is all I'm trying to accomplish ;)

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by tejohnson@Mar 27 2006, 09:25 PM
I like what your doing John, and the thing is, you are actually "doing" it, which I fully respect. Thing is, with the 45e, not many at all have actually done some research and "acted" on beefing it up. Further, hardly anyone at all has moved forward to try something new, tear it down to eval, and go at it again. That is all I'm trying to accomplish ;)
Quoted post


I hear ya and i know the trans is capable of more than most give it credit for
after all my engine went before the trans
my trans is now in sc alero's car still being beat up on and holding strong

i'd say my major set back with the 45 is the lack of options. you have proved it can hold its own though. I'd still like to see quafe make a limited slip unit for it

[tejohnson]

Originally posted by springs fastest alero@Mar 28 2006, 02:28 AM
I'd still like to see quafe make a limited slip unit for it
Quoted post


I think someone was having one made, just not sure of the status...

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by springs fastest alero@Mar 28 2006, 12:28 AM
my trans is now in sc alero's car still being beat up on and holding strong
Quoted post


aheemmm.........kwhauck's car...... :heehee: :heehee:

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by kwhauck+Mar 28 2006, 05:55 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kwhauck @ Mar 28 2006, 05:55 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-springs fastest alero@Mar 28 2006, 12:28 AM
my trans is now in sc alero's car still being beat up on and holding strong
Quoted post


aheemmm.........kwhauck's car...... :heehee: :heehee:
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

not yours till ya build it ;)

[Cliff8928]

I know a Quaife or Torsen LSD would be nice (I know, I have one in my Beretta). You may be able to get a less expensive clutch-type LSD from engineered performance http://www.engineered.net

I know there's many people who have had good experience with them.

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by springs fastest alero+Mar 29 2006, 10:50 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(springs fastest alero @ Mar 29 2006, 10:50 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Originally posted by kwhauck@Mar 28 2006, 05:55 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-springs fastest alero@Mar 28 2006, 12:28 AM
my trans is now in sc alero's car still being beat up on and holding strong
Quoted post


aheemmm.........kwhauck's car...... :heehee: :heehee:
Quoted post


not yours till ya build it ;)
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

oh i will but does that mean that your car is only 50% yours since other people are building stuff for you and you are putting it all together?

[springs fastest alero]

Originally posted by kwhauck@Apr 3 2006, 02:51 PM
oh i will but does that mean that your car is only 50% yours since other people are building stuff for you and you are putting it all together?
Quoted post


lol... Motor I'm building, wiring I'm building, gauge cluster I'm building, supercharger kit, I'm building, intercooler I'm building, all the front end work and reinforcement I did, manual coversion you guessed it, only thing I didnt build was the trans but I had to hunt all the parts, supply both tranies and take everything to get cryo hardend.
everyone out sources but I'm still building the car. :cool:

[kwhauck]

Originally posted by springs fastest alero+Apr 4 2006, 10:17 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(springs fastest alero @ Apr 4 2006, 10:17 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-kwhauck@Apr 3 2006, 02:51 PM
oh i will but does that mean that your car is only 50% yours since other people are building stuff for you and you are putting it all together?
Quoted post


lol... Motor I'm building, wiring I'm building, gauge cluster I'm building, supercharger kit, I'm building, intercooler I'm building, all the front end work and reinforcement I did, manual coversion you guessed it, only thing I didnt build was the trans but I had to hunt all the parts, supply both tranies and take everything to get cryo hardend.
everyone out sources but I'm still building the car. :cool:
Quoted post
[/b][/quote]

i know i'm just playing with yah dude......poop i'm gonna source out to you for help on the 65 tranny swap......poop a lot of the the car has your hands on it already.......we just can't let greg touch it.........although maybe i'll let him make me a hood scoop since his is so freakin sweet!! :emotlol: :emotlol: :emotlol:

[springs fastest alero]

lol!
i just had a 65-e in my hands the other day
had to do a trans on a grand prix
the more i look at it the easier it looks like it will be